Abide As The Self - Ramana Maharishi

[ajay00]

Originally Posted by django

Questioner: If it is true that the Guru is one’s own Self, what is the principle underlying the doctrine which says that, however learned a disciple may be or whatever occult powers he may possess, he cannot attain Self-realisation without the grace of the Guru?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: Although in absolute truth the state of the Guru is that of oneself (the Self), it is very hard for the self which has become the individual (jiva or embodied soul) through ignorance, to realise its true state or nature without the grace of the Guru.

Questioner: How then some great persons attain knowledge without a Guru?

Sri Ramana Maharshi: To a few mature persons the Lord shines as the formless light of knowledge and imparts awareness of the truth.

Questioner: Sri Aurobindo and others refer to you as having had no Guru.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: It all depends on what you call a Guru. He need not be in a human form. Dattatreya had twenty-four Gurus including the five elements- earth, water, etc. Every object in this world was his Guru. The Guru is absolutely necessary. The Upanishads say that none but a Guru can take a man out of the jungle of intellect and sense perceptions. So there must be a Guru.

Questioner: I mean a human Guru- Maharshi did not have one.

Sri Ramana Maharshi: I might have had one at one time or other. But did I not sing hymns to Arunachala? What is a Guru? Guru is God or the Self. First a man prays to God to fulfil his desires. A time comes when he will no more pray for the fulfilment of material desires but for God Himself. God then appears to him in some form or other, human or non-human, to guide him to Himself in answer to his prayer and according to his needs.

Guru is a sanskrit word meaning 'remover of darkness'.

As the above excerpt by Ramana Maharshi states, the Guru can come in the form of a human or non-human.

Dattatreya's 24 Gurus were the elements, insects, animals. birds , natural formations , a girl and a child.

By contemplating on their charecterestics, he was able to discriminate between the real and unreal and attain enlightenment.


A human Guru or teacher can also be helpful. In every aspect of material life, we have teachers and same too is the case of spirituality, unless one is very gifted, as per Ramana and Bodhidharma.

As Emerson stated, 'A good teacher makes things easier to understand.'


Nisargadatta Maharaj, abided in the state of 'I Am' or Awareness, as taught by his guru Siddharameshwar , for three years, and attained enlightenment.

Mooji and Madhukar attained enlightenment through the aid of H.W.Poonja.

Some have attained enlightenment without Gurus too. A charecterestic among them is that they are blessed with excellent study and work habits, along with courage, which enables one to be successful in the material sphere as well.

Devamrita, a recent enlightened master, had no Guru, though he cleared his doubts and made his intellectual understanding precise through research and discussion with saints and scholars. Upon realising that Awareness was the key factor, he practiced it meticulously and attained enlightenment in six months.

Same is the case with Dada Gavand and Jed Mckenna.


The exceptional ones can forgo a Guru, but the problem is that almost everyone takes himself or herself to be an exceptional person or superman due to egotism, improper understanding of their capacities, and ends up nowhere. In fact, within the same time period, they could have attained a high spiritual level or enlightenment, if they had taken the help of an enlightened Guru with a good track record.

Theodore Roosevelt had stated that there are three kinds of marksmen...


My own experience as regards marksmanship was much the same as my experience as regards horsemanship. There are men whose eye and hand are so quick and so sure that they achieve a perfection of marksmanship to which no practice will enable ordinary men to attain. There are other men who cannot learn to shoot with any accuracy at all. In between come the mass of men of ordinary abilities who, if they choose resolutely to practice, can by sheer industry and judgment make themselves fair rifle shots. The men who show this requisite industry and judgment can without special difficulty raise themselves to the second class of respectable rifle shots; and it is to this class that I belong.


Through honesty and critical analysis, one should similarly gauge or assess oneself, and select a realistic course of action suitable to one's capacities and limitations, for attaining the maximum chances for success, in the field of one's endeavor.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by ajay00

Guru is a sanskrit word meaning 'remover of darkness'.

As the above excerpt by Ramana Maharshi states, the Guru can come in the form of a human or non-human.

Dattatreya's 24 Gurus were the elements, insects, animals. birds , natural formations , a girl and a child.

By contemplating on their charecterestics, he was able to discriminate between the real and unreal and attain enlightenment.


A human Guru or teacher can also be helpful. In every aspect of material life, we have teachers and same too is the case of spirituality, unless one is very gifted, as per Ramana and Bodhidharma.

As Emerson stated, 'A good teacher makes things easier to understand.'


Nisargadatta Maharaj, abided in the state of 'I Am' or Awareness, as taught by his guru Siddharameshwar , for three years, and attained enlightenment.

Mooji and Madhukar attained enlightenment through the aid of H.W.Poonja.

Some have attained enlightenment without Gurus too. A charecterestic among them is that they are blessed with excellent study and work habits, along with courage, which enables one to be successful in the material sphere as well.

Devamrita, a recent enlightened master, had no Guru, though he cleared his doubts and made his intellectual understanding precise through research and discussion with saints and scholars. Upon realising that Awareness was the key factor, he practiced it meticulously and attained enlightenment in six months.

Same is the case with Dada Gavand and Jed Mckenna.


The exceptional ones can forgo a Guru, but the problem is that almost everyone takes himself or herself to be an exceptional person or superman due to egotism, improper understanding of their capacities, and ends up nowhere. In fact, within the same time period, they could have attained a high spiritual level or enlightenment, if they had taken the help of an enlightened Guru with a good track record.

Theodore Roosevelt had stated that there are three kinds of marksmen...


My own experience as regards marksmanship was much the same as my experience as regards horsemanship. There are men whose eye and hand are so quick and so sure that they achieve a perfection of marksmanship to which no practice will enable ordinary men to attain. There are other men who cannot learn to shoot with any accuracy at all. In between come the mass of men of ordinary abilities who, if they choose resolutely to practice, can by sheer industry and judgment make themselves fair rifle shots. The men who show this requisite industry and judgment can without special difficulty raise themselves to the second class of respectable rifle shots; and it is to this class that I belong.


Through honesty and critical analysis, one should similarly gauge or assess oneself, and select a realistic course of action suitable to one's capacities and limitations, for attaining the maximum chances for success, in the field of one's endeavor.

EXCELLENT, objective, and well researched post, ajay00. Thank you for that..

I'm reminded that Bodhidharma himself said:

"If you don’t understand by yourself, you’ll have to find a teacher to get to the bottom of life and death. But unless he sees his nature, such a person isn’t a teacher. Even if he can recite the Twelvefold Canon he can’t escape the Wheel of Birth and Death...

There’s no advantage in deceiving yourself. Even if you have mountains of jewels and as many servants as there are grains of sand along the Ganges, you see them when your eyes are open. But what about when your eyes are shut? You should realize then that everything you see is like a dream or illusion.

If you don’t find a teacher soon, you’ll live this life in vain. It’s true, you have the buddha-nature. But the help of a teacher you’ll never know it. Only one person in a million becomes enlightened without a teacher’s help. If, though, by the conjunction of conditions, someone understands what the Buddha meant, that person doesn’t need a teacher. Such a person has a natural awareness superior to anything taught. But unless you’re so blessed, study hard, and by means of instruction you’ll understand.

People who don’t understand and think they can do so without study are no different from those deluded souls who can’t tell white from black."

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by ajay00

Guru is a sanskrit word meaning 'remover of darkness'.

I never knew this.

[Shivani Devi]

Namaste.

There is a reason why some people become totally turned off the spiritual path and that's because of all the 'spiritual hypocrisy' and all the 'judgmental attitudes' which surround it.

For example, you'll see a rich celebrity in Beverley Hills, or even a well-meaning, well-to-do 'spiritual person' on a 'spiritual forum' say; "what about all those poor, starving people in Africa...we should have so much pity and compassion for them...poor, dear souls..." meanwhile, they are all driving around in their Mercs, chowing down on steak, having massages twice a week...and the moment one says "hey, I know...how about you sell your house, sell your car, donate all the proceeds of the sale and all of your income to those poor, starving people of Africa and live on the street, without anything, if you feel so strongly about it?" and then, all those well-to-do 'keyboard warriors' will say "how can you ignore the plight of those poor people, you cold, heartless, piece of work?" and then, all you can do, is tell them to 'eff off', honestly! and then, they will say "and you call yourself 'spiritual', I doubt it" and all you can say is "if that's what being spiritual IS according to you, I am totally glad that I am not" and then, they'll say something like; "the door is that-a-way, and don't let it hit you on your tail on the way out".

Om Namah Shivaya

[sky]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Namaste.

There is a reason why some people become totally turned off the spiritual path and that's because of all the 'spiritual hypocrisy' and all the 'judgmental attitudes' which surround it.

For example, you'll see a rich celebrity in Beverley Hills, or even a well-meaning, well-to-do 'spiritual person' on a 'spiritual forum' say; "what about all those poor, starving people in Africa...we should have so much pity and compassion for them...poor, dear souls..." meanwhile, they are all driving around in their Mercs, chowing down on steak, having massages twice a week...and the moment one says "hey, I know...how about you sell your house, sell your car, donate all the proceeds of the sale and all of your income to those poor, starving people of Africa and live on the street, without anything, if you feel so strongly about it?" and then, all those well-to-do 'keyboard warriors' will say "how can you ignore the plight of those poor people, you cold, heartless, piece of work?" and then, all you can do, is tell them to 'eff off', honestly! and then, they will say "and you call yourself 'spiritual', I doubt it" and all you can say is "if that's what being spiritual IS according to you, I am totally glad that I am not" and then, they'll say something like; "the door is that-a-way, and don't let it hit you on your tail on the way out".

Om Namah Shivaya

I love your honesty and sense of humour... it's refreshing.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by sky123

I love your honesty and sense of humour... it's refreshing.

Thanks.

About this whole 'Guru' thing...I keep getting flashes, like a late-night advertisment on the free-to-air shopping channel:

"Announcer": 'And now, for a limited time...GURU...a tried and tested method that has worked for thousands of people worldwide....here's what a satisfied customer has to say about it:

"Satisfied Customer": 'My whole life was going to hell, before I found the 'GURU METHOD'...now, I couldn't be happier! it has worked for me...and it can work for you too!'

"Announcer": 'That's right folks, but don't take my word for it, here's what Mrs Smith has to say about it:

"Mrs Smith": 'The GURU METHOD totally transformed my life and made me a much peaceful person...I totally recommend it to all seeking personal fulfillment'.

"Announcer": "Thousands of people can't be wrong...so act now and total satisfaction is guaranteed, with a 'karma-backed' warranty and if you are one of the first to respond, we shall give you TWO 'GURU Methods' for the price of one...that's right, one for you and one for a friend, so what are you waiting for? act now so you don't miss out!"

...and this is why I am very hesitant about the whole 'guru thing'.

Om Namah Shivaya

[sky]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Thanks.

About this whole 'Guru' thing...I keep getting flashes, like a late-night advertisment on the free-to-air shopping channel:

"Announcer": 'And now, for a limited time...GURU...a tried and tested method that has worked for thousands of people worldwide....here's what a satisfied customer has to say about it:

"Satisfied Customer": 'My whole life was going to hell, before I found the 'GURU METHOD'...now, I couldn't be happier! it has worked for me...and it can work for you too!'

"Announcer": 'That's right folks, but don't take my word for it, here's what Mrs Smith has to say about it:

"Mrs Smith": 'The GURU METHOD totally transformed my life and made me a much peaceful person...I totally recommend it to all seeking personal fulfillment'.

"Announcer": "Thousands of people can't be wrong...so act now and total satisfaction is guaranteed, with a 'karma-backed' warranty and if you are one of the first to respond, we shall give you TWO 'GURU Methods' for the price of one...that's right, one for you and one for a friend, so what are you waiting for? act now so you don't miss out!"

...and this is why I am very hesitant about the whole 'guru thing'.

Om Namah Shivaya

' buy one, get one free '
Yes I feel the same but it is a personal choice, some feel they are a benefit others a hindrance.
I was having a chat on the non-duality and the guru thread with a person who thinks they can cure illnesses and unblock obstructions etc: I believe it's a placebo effect not some special powers that they have, but It's irrelevant if a sick person gets well again, that's what's important.

[Shivani Devi]

Namaste.

Sometimes I sit and wonder what all those 'historical gurus' (Ramana, Ramakrishna, Buddha, Jesus etc) would be like if they were born into or subject to today's modern world....would they even be noticed? would they make use of Youtube and Social Media? or would their 'disciples' post stories, blogs etc on their behalf and without their permission, only to have them viewed as just another 'crackpot' in the whole 'guru smorgasbord' which is out there? Is it the case where the true 'enlightened master' is a thing of the past, due to all these allegations (either founded or unfounded) by those who disagree or find fault with their whole practice and methodology? What makes Sadguru any different from Mooji? What role do the disciples play in a guru's exaltation or downfall? There's a whole lot of 'politicking' going on which has changed a lot in the last 70-80 years...it's not as 'simple' now as it was back then.

We just have to look at the 'last wave' of great gurus which made their presence known from 1930 - 1960...Ramana Maharishi, Swami Yogananda, Swami Sivananda Saraswati, Jiddu Krishnamurti etc...no gurus since then have made an impact really, or been without controversy.

[jonesboy]

I would not say Sadguru nor Mooji are enlightened. To me they are teachers but not at the realized guru level.

I think that is the problem and where your tv story fits. Each of the above just talk. They may say meditate here or do this but beyond that it is talk. A realized guru is much more than that as KS mentions over and over again.

Also, I don't see where a student who may do something wrong is a reflection on the teacher. All you can do is help, if the person then decides to act out in a way that brings discredit to the tradition or the teacher how is it the teachers fault? Is it your fault if your children cheat on a homework assignment at school? No, I would say not.

The thing is to be open. How can a new path, a way come to you if you are closed off and unwilling to even check something out?

Most people here have no clue about guru's or energy or any of these things but they don't mind putting any of it down and saying how bad it is.

But then like Jesus said:

9. Jesus said, "Look, the sower went out, took a handful (of seeds), and scattered (them). Some fell on the road, and the birds came and gathered them. Others fell on rock, and they didn't take root in the soil and didn't produce heads of grain. Others fell on thorns, and they choked the seeds and worms ate them. And others fell on good soil, and it produced a good crop: it yielded sixty per measure and one hundred twenty per measure."

You can just keep offering and while most won't take root. Those few that do become bountiful :)

[Bindu*]

Today is a good day to tune yourself to the Guruprinciple (Gurutattva).

This principle is omniprescent inside everything. A cosmic principle.

Some teachers are catalysts for that principle.

https://www.facebook.com/AstralGodde...7nCK24&fref=nf

In America today is Guru Pushya Nakshatra Yoga day (Gurupushyamrut Yoga) as the Moon transits in the very auspicious Pushya nakshatra which extends in the Moon's own sign from 3 degrees 20 minutes to 16 degrees 40 minutes sidereal Cancer. Pushya is ruled by Brihasptai (GURU), and Thursday is also ruled by GURU, so this day when the Moon is in Pushya on a Thursday is a good muhurta (auspicious time) for seeking spiritual blessings, especially those of Lakshmi who was born in Pushya nakshatra. It is a day for auspicious new beginnings and making investments etc

I think Ammachi is a good example of a prescent time Guru with a good impact on the globe.