Levels/Layers of Progression

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

Huh? What is this "limitless"? Again just words, concepts with no basis, nor referenc, no ration, logical common sense or scientific expalnation or evidence.

Healing chanting of words/concepts like "limitless" or "infinite" this or that repeatedly does not make a concept true.

Perhaps you might realize one day that words came after the fact. "Reality" is defined by a tool at times i.e. the use of concepts or words - as one way of communication and contextualization, but as someone far wiser than I said, a rose by any other name...

If your choice of religion is limited or defined only by intellectual concepts and you believe only you are the purveyor of the validity of those concepts, you will indeed have a hard time with religion or spirituality.

[blossomingtree]

Originally Posted by r6r6r

With due respect I never made such a comment, implied, inferred or insinuated such concept.

I invoked experience so as to better, add clarity and specifity to Toms words/concepts. IF two people experience a similar thing then the better can communicate their concepts to each other, and others if there exists some commonality of experience.

Ex I tell you a triangle and you have some idea of what I'm talking about. Yet you dont know the specifics. Ive been trying to get clear specifics and more clarity from Tom for his words/concept

You may not know what a 3D volumetric tetrahedron is but when I show you a picture/graphic of one, then you know and you can better grasp all of the aspect that go along with comprehension of the wholeness of its existence in mind/concept or as an occupied space reality.

r6

Apologies if I misunderstood, scholarly debates no longer interest me much anymore so I usually only skim here and there. Be well.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by MicroMacro

Look with your knowing and your curiosity.
Look into the deepest inner most part of your self that you can sense. Heart is the word we use because there is no word for "IT". Does anything in particular make you smile on the inside? That's what is meant when the word heart is used.

Do not use your personality to identify what ego owns (wants/dislikes/opinions, etc). Give your self permission to open internally to truth. Truth is more than math.

Jonesboy may or may not agree with that.

Well said. Sure, as the spiritual life is something like an existential outpouring of infinite love. There may be obstacles to the free flow, and we all have these to lesser or greater degrees, which require loving-kindness and quite the delicate care.

I think sometimes we might become so preoccupied with very high spiritual things that we lose awareness of what is actually going on with ourselves. There can be a tendency to reach higher and higher when we arbitrarily define levels of progress, and the impulse to prove one's station or position on the 'ladder' naturally arises when we structure our social setting on notions of climbing these heights.

It is good in one way to define a structure, for the sake of producing an episimology, but there are pitfalls to it, particarly when taken literally, and the 'heart' is really a very commonly understood way of understanding love. To place a hand on the heart means much the same thing to any cultural group - and in this we start to see, at least metaphorically, what is universally true.

I feel what you said returns us somewhat to a more spiritual disposition, like I described at first here, which is really where we need to be, so well said, well done, saddu, saddu.

[jonesboy]

The higher you go the more open your heart becomes.

It doesn't work any other way.

Love, compassion is part of our natural state. Anything else is an attachment, things we hold on to.

The striving for levels is an attachment.

When we work on ourselves, let go of our junk, all these things begin to naturally arise not just during practice but as a natural state of being.

The use of levels as used in most traditions is to let the student know there is more.

Many, many people think they have arrived when it is often just the beginning.

Having someone to help guide and show you around such pitfalls is priceless.


I will also add that in spirituality there are terms that are used for the specific meaning. The topic of a God is what split Buddhism from Brahmanism.

The 'Heart" in spiritual terms from KS, Ramana Buddhism etc.. does not refer to a physical location in the ultimate sense.

The same thing with the word energy in spirituality is much different that what is used in normal society.

The words have been defined and used in defined ways for thousands and thousands of years to make sure people understand what someone is talking about in a specific way.

It is okay to not know the terms and all the special meanings of them. It is not ok to make excuses for not knowing what has been learned, what has been taught and to put down people for taking the time to study and learn. I do see that last part often from people.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

Well said. Sure, as the spiritual life is something like an existential outpouring of infinite love. There may be obstacles to the free flow, and we all have these to lesser or greater degrees, which require loving-kindness and quite the delicate care.

Gem, hello there!
Agreed, full stop.

I think sometimes we might become so preoccupied with very high spiritual things that we lose awareness of what is actually going on with ourselves. There can be a tendency to reach higher and higher when we arbitrarily define levels of progress, and the impulse to prove one's station or position on the 'ladder' naturally arises when we structure our social setting on notions of climbing these heights.

It is good in one way to define a structure, for the sake of producing an episimology, but there are pitfalls to it, particarly when taken literally, and the 'heart' is really a very commonly understood way of understanding love. To place a hand on the heart means much the same thing to any cultural group - and in this we start to see, at least metaphorically, what is universally true.

I feel what you said returns us somewhat to a more spiritual disposition, like I described at first here, which is really where we need to be, so well said, well done, saddu, saddu.

I agree but I would say, even more generally, that along with the reality of spiritual and emotional growth being non-linear, there is an even more fundamental chasm (and schism) that opens up on our journey when we prioritise learning led from the mind or intellect, versus learning led from the heart centre, or, from the core of who we really are.

That chasm and that schism is what leads to the disconnect, where you have folks who are quite evolved in some aspects but extremely and intentionally underdeveloped in others. Such that certain aspects and groups and people and relationships become unworthy of our authentic love in our day-to-day doing and being.

Because the intentional and longstanding underdevelopment of the heart centre is so universal to humanity and to the history of humanity to date, I have mentioned how the chasm in essence worms its way into our journey, and how we carry it forward with various workarounds whilst intentionally indulging the underdevelopment of the heart centre.

This is one of the most critical and most overlooked aspects of much of our spiritual work to date, although I personally hope that this intentional lack and abrogation is coming to the attention of humanity at large, for the application of healing and compassion and lovingkindness all round.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

The higher you go the more open your heart becomes.

It doesn't work any other way.

Love, compassion is part of our natural state. Anything else is an attachment, things we hold on to.

The striving for levels is an attachment.

When we work on ourselves, let go of our junk, all these things begin to naturally arise not just during practice but as a natural state of being.

The use of levels as used in most traditions is to let the student know there is more.

Many, many people think they have arrived when it is often just the beginning.

Having someone to help guide and show you around such pitfalls is priceless.

.....

Hello Jonesboy! I see (in all the excitement ) that you didn't respond to my earlier post...

Well, I just want to say that I do agree in general that it's true, i.e., that the further you go on your journey, the more open the heart becomes. However, for each of us, that in and of itself is always relative to the state of the heart centre you bring to your present moment...and that is vastly different for each of us, no matter what stage.

As I just said above to Gem, the reality of spiritual and emotional growth being non-linear, there is an even more fundamental chasm (and schism) that opens up on our journey when we prioritise learning led from the mind or intellect, versus learning led from the heart centre, or, from the core of who we really are. This prioritisation may continue in a severely imbalanced way all the way up the chain (so to speak), or nearly so. That is due to conscious choices to essentially prioritise the unbalanced way, and it is how humanity has operated to date, even with most of its spiritual leaders.

How do we assess this? Of course, we can apprehend directly. But additionally, we can manifestly apprehend this, equally directly. That is, the ultimate measure is always the manifestation of authentic love in our lives, and to the extent we have any human contact, it is in our being and doing authentic love to others equally to the self and the self, equally to others.

My observation is that none but the rarest of human guides have lived their own lives being deeply engaged, present, and equally loving to both (unrelated adult) women and men with a platonic, agape love on the ground with engagement and consistency, long-term.

Having deep beloved agape friendships over a lifetime with women and men, with no sexual relationship or expectation of sex &/or subservience. Actively seeking and supporting their highest good unconditionally, simply for who they are, full stop.

And this is exactly what I sought to underscore, so that we may more deeply begin to explore more deeply why it is that Stage 4 underdevelopment is so -- from the broadest possible level for all humanity, and particularly present-day humanity.

Stage 4 underdevelopment (the intentional absence of authentic love in our being and doing) is so hugely related to what we choose to priortise as a collective, and what we give collective time and space to culturally, and to what we designate and actively promote as normative and thus even "good" and "true". The impact these have on each of us cannot be understated, as it shapes the context within which our humanity arises, dictating the initial bounds of perception and possibility.

Looking forward to your thoughts and musings.
Peace & blessings
7L

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Namaste Shivani!
I feel you totally get me here...and I totally get you here too.
I just bolded some particularly choice bits...beautiful stuff, there!

You are (all) that, and yes, you still do have to choose to be and do who you truly are, at centre, in this place. But really, that's the beauty of it.
The grace, the bliss, and the sublime joy of the being and the doing. That doing bit will get you sometimes but it's also how YOU shine through in your essence right here and right now.

Peace & blessings.
7L

I was also caught up in the conversation and also the forum database going down for 2 days, so I didn't reply to you either and I humbly apologise.

You are correct. My challenge is to be able to express this love for Shiva more openly in some way and also apply this knowledge in an area/arena where others will be actually interested in hearing it, or else just keep it all to myself as it only ever seems to be for 'my' benefit anyway. *sigh*

Meanwhile, the challenge is and always has been to be enlightened inside, but to be able to act like a regular Joe and be totally comfortable with all of the hypocrisy that entails superficially and externally - or else go and live in an ashram for the rest of one's life.

If there is anything a Guru could help me with, it is that. Learning how to express my love and knowledge without making so many enemies in the process, then turning back to Shiva after the fact and going "well, at least you are still there...as you've always been" so in a way, it's good...in a way, it's not.

I also understand something though...the logic, wisdom and knowledge I possess is so deep and profound, only another Shaivite scholar well-versed in the Agama Tantric texts written back between 1000 and 1300 CE will actually get it...because yeah, I'm pretty much a past-master at identifying all the Hindu syncretism occurring in obscure texts that nobody studies much anymore.

However, with all of that going for me, I still fail to understand basically anything r6r6 writes because I'm a total failure at mathematics...totally! I learned enough to be able to understand the tattwas, sacred geometry and it all ends where Euclid does, but when r6r6 writes all his equations and I go to read them all, I am like this>>

So, I guess that r6r6 knows what he means when he writes all those equations out, even if nobody else does, judging by the few replies his posts containing them actually sees...yeah, I think there are as many quantum physicists on these boards as there are historical Hindu religious scholars with a Shaivite bent....so, some of us have refined and clarified this knowledge so much, that we have pretty much specialised ourselves out of everyday existence.

Problem is after that, coming back to mundane, superficial knowledge, is like a university graduate sitting through a kindergarten class wondering if they could learn the alphabet a different way than what they already know, or else just go and play in the sandpit and do stuff like this:

http://static.dnaindia.com/locality/...?itok=cMz_45nU

I mean, even yesterday I took my mother out to the local garden centre to buy some mulch.....in the garden centre there were many upturned cylindrical egg-shaped planter containers which, for all the world, resembled a row of Shiva Lingams and behind all that was a Buddha-head water feature, with water flowing out of the top-knot of Buddha's matted hair...I just went within and paid my homage and respects to Lord Shiva...it was either do that, or I would have to go and put every planter container the right way up because it kinda bothered me they all looked like Shiva Lingams. lol

So yeah, I also get that the universe conspires against me to keep me fully devoted to Lord Shiva despite any 'better judgments' I may have.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Gem, hello there!
Agreed, full stop.



I agree but I would say, even more generally, that along with the reality of spiritual and emotional growth being non-linear, there is an even more fundamental chasm (and schism) that opens up on our journey when we prioritise learning led from the mind or intellect, versus learning led from the heart centre, or, from the core of who we really are.

In the spiritual context, I can only talk about learning as a kind of transformational insight.

That chasm and that schism is what leads to the disconnect, where you have folks who are quite evolved in some aspects but extremely and intentionally underdeveloped in others. Such that certain aspects and groups and people and relationships become unworthy of our authentic love in our day-to-day doing and being.

To me, spiritualism is exemplified by a stable balance of equanimity of mind.

'Authentic' in terms of universal love is unconditional. There can't be notions of unworthiness because the judgement of worth isn't there. Interpersonally, it is prudent to have boundaries to define the nature of our particular relationships.

Because the intentional and longstanding underdevelopment of the heart centre is so universal to humanity and to the history of humanity to date, I have mentioned how the chasm in essence worms its way into our journey, and how we carry it forward with various workarounds whilst intentionally indulging the underdevelopment of the heart centre.

I just assume 'heart centre' relates to the opening of universal love in ourselves. To me, this involves the purification - the opening being of mere consequence to that.

This is one of the most critical and most overlooked aspects of much of our spiritual work to date, although I personally hope that this intentional lack and abrogation is coming to the attention of humanity at large, for the application of healing and compassion and lovingkindness all round.

Peace & blessings
7L

To me, within my compassion there is no desire for people to be other than they are, and no 'force of will' involved in any regard. In me, compassion entails the acknowledgment of it as it is sans the reactive characteristics of judgment. Because the true nature is like love unbound, the undying wish for the happiness of beings is unlike desire according to what beings want, but rather, it is more like an outpouring which is inherently common to us all.

There is an art to opening up the space in which one can be the way they are, and perhaps bring themselves out into the light a little to 'show more of themselves', because it is truly OK to be just as you are. There is no lack in the acknowledgment of obstacles within oneself, just the acknowledgment - This is the way I am. It is really and truly fine, worthy, lovable, 'in the eyes of the Lord'... so to speak.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I was also caught up in the conversation and also the forum database going down for 2 days, so I didn't reply to you either and I humbly apologise.

You are correct. My challenge is to be able to express this love for Shiva more openly in some way and also apply this knowledge in an area/arena where others will be actually interested in hearing it, or else just keep it all to myself as it only ever seems to be for 'my' benefit anyway. *sigh*

Meanwhile, the challenge is and always has been to be enlightened inside, but to be able to act like a regular Joe and be totally comfortable with all of the hypocrisy that entails superficially and externally - or else go and live in an ashram for the rest of one's life.

If there is anything a Guru could help me with, it is that. Learning how to express my love and knowledge without making so many enemies in the process, then turning back to Shiva after the fact and going "well, at least you are still there...as you've always been" so in a way, it's good...in a way, it's not.

I also understand something though...the logic, wisdom and knowledge I possess is so deep and profound, only another Shaivite scholar well-versed in the Agama Tantric texts written back between 1000 and 1300 CE will actually get it...because yeah, I'm pretty much a past-master at identifying all the Hindu syncretism occurring in obscure texts that nobody studies much anymore.

However, with all of that going for me, I still fail to understand basically anything r6r6 writes because I'm a total failure at mathematics...totally! I learned enough to be able to understand the tattwas, sacred geometry and it all ends where Euclid does, but when r6r6 writes all his equations and I go to read them all, I am like this>>

So, I guess that r6r6 knows what he means when he writes all those equations out, even if nobody else does, judging by the few replies his posts containing them actually sees...yeah, I think there are as many quantum physicists on these boards as there are historical Hindu religious scholars with a Shaivite bent....so, some of us have refined and clarified this knowledge so much, that we have pretty much specialised ourselves out of everyday existence.

Problem is after that, coming back to mundane, superficial knowledge, is like a university graduate sitting through a kindergarten class wondering if they could learn the alphabet a different way than what they already know, or else just go and play in the sandpit and do stuff like this:

http://static.dnaindia.com/locality/...?itok=cMz_45nU

I mean, even yesterday I took my mother out to the local garden centre to buy some mulch.....in the garden centre there were many upturned cylindrical egg-shaped planter containers which, for all the world, resembled a row of Shiva Lingams and behind all that was a Buddha-head water feature, with water flowing out of the top-knot of Buddha's matted hair...I just went within and paid my homage and respects to Lord Shiva...it was either do that, or I would have to go and put every planter container the right way up because it kinda bothered me they all looked like Shiva Lingams. lol

So yeah, I also get that the universe conspires against me to keep me fully devoted to Lord Shiva despite any 'better judgments' I may have.

I think the great insight of Euclid was to define 'that which has no parts', and represent it as a point, drawn as a dot.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Gem

In the spiritual context, I can only talk about learning as a kind of transformational insight.

'
Hello Gem, and with all due respect, I strongly disagree that learning is in the realm of insight only or can only be discussed in that context.
IMO this is a very odd and artificial boundary, as there is no such boundary in our actual being and doing.

Why is it that you make this sort of statement, if I may ask? I understand there must be a rationale or feeling of some kind that you feel prevents you from a deeper integration or perception of the spectrum of our being and doing.

To me, spiritualism is exemplified by a stable balance of equanimity of mind.

I certainly agree that equanimity of mind is key and is absolutely necessary but yet it is not sufficient, or complete.

Equanimity of being and doing in our manifest word and deed is equally important, and not just in our intent and thought.

Again, as I see it, there is a critical manifestation of word and deed which requires (most of the time) an ongoing act of conscious choosing, day in and day out, to align those with intent and thought that are right-aligned to centre.

'Authentic' in terms of universal love is unconditional. There can't be notions of unworthiness because the judgement of worth isn't there. Interpersonally, it is prudent to have boundaries to define the nature of our particular relationships.

Absolutely. couldn't have said it better.

However, my comment was speaking to the near-universality and constant historical lack of authentic love in human relationships, which has been most pervasively and intentionally excluded from relationships with certain groups deemed less worthy:

-in particular, men's relationships with women, women being inferior and not deserving of agape from men...since time immemorial.
-also, our in-group treatment of all other "out groups": native people, foreigners, people of colour in most of the world, folks with different belief systems or sexual orientations, etc)

We now routinely acknowledge the misalignment and inherent injustice (per rights of humankind) of the latter...but as yet, no one aside from Jesus and perhaps a handful of others (?) have specifically and manifestly demonstrated in their own lives how men should foundationally love women...with agape love and as you say, without conditions and demands.

Even now, most men will argue that agape and an anam cara platonic friendship is irrelevant to and/or impossible in male-female relationships, since the focus is sex and maybe sentimentality (according to Western men, who have strongly shaped modern culture and its active enabling of violent porn and casual sex addiction as normative and good).

This is most clearly manifest in their words and most essentially in their deeds in their day-to-day life, where most do not befriend women without sexual intentions and most do not engage or sustain any ongoing interaction of any depth with women which is not sexual now or potentially (either in fact or fantasy). Most demand sex up front, early on, from any women -- including the majority of women who explicitly state they seek a life partner -- and most men do this well before any knowing and coming to love another as a person and as a friend is even remotely possible.

And thus, we observe the mainstream male-female "partner" relationship has become quite misdirected (debased and degraded), being absolutely and with more or less full awareness consciously based on sex and sentimentality, and ego service, per up-front dictates of the man (sex or never mind getting to know you) and not even remotely based on willing the good of the other, as other, unconditionally. Here we observe the impact of both a misdirected (degraded, dehumanised) culture, in combination with the severe and persistent imbalance between men and women in nearly all aspects of life.

I just assume 'heart centre' relates to the opening of universal love in ourselves. To me, this involves the purification - the opening being of mere consequence to that.

Yes. It is universal agape love, and it is, literally, who we are at centre. Who we truly are, which is manifest in our alignment of our intent, thought, word, and deed with our centres. I think you have the gist of what I was saying

To me, within my compassion there is no desire for people to be other than they are, and no 'force of will' involved in any regard. In me, compassion entails the acknowledgment of it as it is sans the reactive characteristics of judgment. Because the true nature is like love unbound, the undying wish for the happiness of beings is unlike desire according to what beings want, but rather, it is more like an outpouring which is inherently common to us all.

Love is unconditional acceptance and unconditionally willing the highest good of all.

In its manifestation, it is also the being and doing of healthy boundaries in ALL aspects of life, as you noted briefly.

Thus contributing loving and compassionate input regarding those boundaries and regarding sustainable means of living in authentic love with both self and others...EQUALLY to the self...is critical. As is manifestly discussing and creating those healthy and sustainable lifeways. These are exactly the discussions we need to be having, if in fact we can acknowledge that there are environments and life patterns that better nourish and sustain, versus those that better exploit and degrade (self and others).

There is an art to opening up the space in which one can be the way they are, and perhaps bring themselves out into the light a little to 'show more of themselves', because it is truly OK to be just as you are. There is no lack in the acknowledgment of obstacles within oneself, just the acknowledgment - This is the way I am. It is really and truly fine, worthy, lovable, 'in the eyes of the Lord'... so to speak.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's all good to be wherever you are, all round. It's where everyone begins in each moment, after all. Once acceptance is present, ownership is a rather immediate follow-on. It is an integral part of full acceptance of oneself. This is where we begin to walk our paths more consciously.

That said, if you rape or assault or murder or steal...if you lie and deceive and manipulate for sex or power or what have ye...you've got things to work on, as you're actively harming others. Whether your culture says it's "ok" and you're "ok" to do those things has to be understood by each person as ultimately irrelevant and in fact as just insidious misdirection. Just like one's individual choices to rape or murder or manipulate are likewise consciously chosen misdirection, as soon as one's attention is brought to this place.

Ownership and then consciously manifesting better aligned words and deeds is always that next step, whenever that takes place for each of us And it's from this place that we can begin to speak to one another about what a culture founded on agape looks like, at a much more personal level and from a much more personal perspective than simple societal laws of basic conduct.

Peace & blessings
7L