The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful

[Shivani Devi]

Although, all is not completely without due merit. I must acknowledge an expansion of my consciousness on here, where it is due...but it doesn't happen very often.

Two weeks ago a Jyotisha (Hindu Esoteric Astrologer) called Bindu, did my sidereal natal horoscope chart.

It turns out that I have my ascendant and north node both in Sagittarius in the 9th house...and it also turns out that references to Lord Shiva exist all over my chart, in that I have been chosen by Him, I'm deeply beloved of Him and my 'Moksha indicator'...or 'enlightenment factor' is pretty much off the scale...there's also a sacred trine that embodied divine beings have in their chart...it's there in mine.

Of course, I allowed my ego to jump up and down a bit at that news, but it swelled my heart with love and joy...I had something that was actually tangible to back up all I felt inside...what I was going through.

Then a couple of nights ago, on chat...a medium wanted to read me and wanted to channel Shiva directly to do so...I was like "go for it".

What followed, was her saying stuff to me that only Shiva could have possibly known...first was that I needed to ground back into Muladhara Chakra using red agate...second, was He thanked me for offering Him a sunflower yesterday (which I did and told no-one about)...third was that I was a direct disciple of His in a past life...now this, was something I just had a 'feeling' about, but I wasn't sure, but the medium confirmed it...fourth was that my neighbour has a crush on me...which I already knew about, but I avoid/ignore him because he totally creeps me out...so in that reading, a lot of stuff came up.

In both cases, I was challenged to my very core and that made me happy.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Raziel

I love that quote - Mr Holmes is always ahead of the game that is afoot yet much like yourself he still has to rationalise "why" he has concluded something to the rest of the world (for the sake of the law in his case).

I was thinking about how it's easy for raziel& shivani to communicate & if you'd allow me to indulge I think I know why ...

In the workplace I verbally speak to the "boss" with the same manner & tone as I do "the cleaner" - I did the same with teachers at school - always have ...

I have always understood that "the boss" is a label & that in another environment they hold no sway over me - so I never need to impress or bow yet I also am courteous & hardworking.

I find difficulty when someone is "locked in" to the work dynamic - they compete or are rude to those of a lesser rank. Then I find myself biting my tongue but I will do them no favours - I aid them little even when perhaps I could because they don't appreciate it.

That is Raziel.

I would/do speak to God/the universe in exactly the same way ...

If you are spiritually more advanced than I, have a higher level of connection to God - my manner is still the same with all ...

Speaking to God/ a person on a 5D playing field whatever I still address & question as I would any other.

God/Universal energy is surely confident enough to understand my questioning is coming from a place of trying to understand.

When a child asks an adult a valid question - an explanation in terms that the child understands goes a long way.

Some people who consider themselves "evolved" or not refuse to talk to the cleaner on 1 to 1 terms.

God in any form should be understanding, kind or at least a good teacher who appreciates questions.

Whatever 5D/4D/3D realm you or any other spiritual person might be on - you have always conversed, at times you ask questions of the common folk.

To 7luminaries credit she made a point of saying that you are valued here, catsquotl also made honest posts about why he perhaps didn't respond at the time .. he wasn't able still pondering the points you raised.

Anyway I talk to God as I talk to the milkman - God knows who he/she is * what he/she is capable of & so do I - there is no need for
Raziel to affirm anything to God - A BEING OF INFINITE WISDOM.

I acknowledge who I am talking too & continue regardless feeling comfortable that the "greater" is capable of dumbing down in order to enlighten.

The inability to communicate or form a level of understanding with the lesser mortals is not of God or spiritual enlightenment.

Shivani Devi(if not insane in her membrane) is always able to communicate & I'll say it again that it's appreciated

I'll also give credit to Gem here : The spiritual conversation is difficult, and therefore, skillful !!!!

.

Very beautiful perception.

Any conceptual interpretation of the enlightened state is not the actual enlightened state....how can it be? It is still only the finger which points to the moon in regards.

However, instead of looking in the direction of the pointing finger, many will look at the finger itself, or the one who is pointing - completely missing the relative inference and thus, the 'big picture'. This is the dichotomy.

With regards to your non-discriminate and commensurate consideration of others, that may be taken into account here, but another thing is that you are very down to earth and call it as you see it - and that is a trait we both share and also one I admire in another human being.

We both really don't have any 'airs and graces'...not much 'humility' and no actual 'pretense'...we are WYSIWYG people and yep, I also speak to God in the same way...I mean, He knows what I think...the contents of my heart, my soul, everything...so how can I 'pretend'? how can I be 'dishonest'? when He knows what my 'baby butt' looked like?...I think of it that way.

...and I'm still trying to get my head around an agnostic such as yourself talking to God...

[Raziel]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Very beautiful perception.

Any conceptual interpretation of the enlightened state is not the actual enlightened state....how can it be? It is still only the finger which points to the moon in regards.

However, instead of looking in the direction of the pointing finger, many will look at the finger itself, or the one who is pointing - completely missing the relative inference and thus, the 'big picture'.

With regards to your non-discriminate and commensurate consideration of others, that may be taken into account here, but another thing is that you are very down to earth and call it as you see it - and that is a trait we both share and also one I admire in another human being.

We both really don't have any 'airs and graces'...not much 'humility' and no actual 'pretense'...we are WYSIWYG people and yep, I also speak to God in the same way...I mean, He knows what I think...the contents of my heart, my soul, everything...so how can I 'pretend'? how can I be 'dishonest'? when He knows what my 'baby butt' looked like...I think of it that way.

...and I'm trying to get my head around an agnostic such as yourself talking to God...

I don't know how electricity works - things might be powered by fairy magic for all I know - God is the same.

Many claim to know God - I claim not to - but I know love.

I'm thankful to the universe for it - even if it's all an autonomous game of chance.


The concept of a "life review" after death was presented by an author & I thought - hmm - if it's all a lesson then I need to take notes on why I do something ...

Me talking to God is like a cosmic Dictaphone


Me: "Ok I have two choices here - if I do this then I see this as a result or then there is the other one"

Universe: ... blank..... or the third way presents itself ...

Me: "Ok well I agree/ I'll do it but I object to it on these grounds"

[hallow]

You know what I love about this universe! All the different types of people and all the different ways of thinking. I don't think anyone one of us is 100% right or wrong. It's just one big never ending project in the aim for prefection, Like a flower garden. I believe the falts is what gives the garden it's real personally. Guess it's just how you look at the fault of the garden and of others.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Raziel

I don't know how electricity works - things might be powered by fairy magic for all I know - God is the same.

Many claim to know God - I claim not to - but I know love.

I'm thankful to the universe for it - even if it's all an autonomous game of chance.


The concept of a "life review" after death was presented by an author & I thought - hmm - if it's all a lesson then I need to take notes on why I do something ...

Me talking to God is like a cosmic Dictaphone


Me: "Ok I have two choices here - if I do this then I see this as a result or then there is the other one"

Universe: ... blank..... or the third way presents itself ...

Me: "Ok well I agree/ I'll do it but I object to it on these grounds"

There is God, who is indeed 'unknowable' but not beyond a cognizant transcendence through the medium of unconditional love.

Whatever the mind believes, it conceives and the extent of the conception also dictates the belief, until the conviction is instilled within the heart as a 'personal truth' without the attending belief.

Omnipotence is outside the realm of gnosis, but also contained within it, which enables this Divine 'shapeshift' to occur between an attributed and absolute manifestation.

Thus, I do not have the luxury of believing in 'chance' or 'free-will'.

Me: "Ok I have two choices here - if I do this then I see this as a result or then there is the other one"

Source: "You do realise of course, that 'not choosing' is also a 'choice' do you not?"

Me: "Dang it!...I'm screwed which ever way I go".

Source: "Pretty much" *laughs*

Me talking to God is like lover talking to the beloved.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

About those cardinal sun signs...

I have also noticed something else quite fascinating.

I'm pretty easy-going, get along with everybody, pretty much..however, whenever I butt heads with another, or it seems they have a problem with me and won't tell me why....whenever they don't like me how I am and seek to change me, then go away/ignore me because they can't....with an afterthought, I tend to look at their star sign.

They are either Aquarius, Virgo, or Pisces...every damn time!

I'm a Leo, of course.

So, I should learn from all this eh?

Shivani: "what is your star sign please?"
Person: *mentions any of the above three*
Shivani: "cya and nice knowing ya" *runs far...far away*

Shivani, you're very welcome to the love & hugs
But I used that cardinal sun sign thing purely as a lowest common denominator thing. There's so much more to it but I was keeping it simple for purposes of example only.

I also know that in this new age (Aquarius), everything is transformed and has a different emphasis or cast to it than before...I see it in myself and just everywhere. So hopefully that'll be the case here for you as well.



Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

If my (loosely ascribed to) Western spiritual tradition wasn't freely open, focused on manifest outcomes in the world such as peace, authentic love and yes social justice...and disagreement wasn't 100% supported as a right...then I would no way be able to tolerate it even for a second. As IMO for me personally the patriarchy is suffocating and what I see as the anti-democratic aspects of that are pretty much impossible to tolerate if I think abt it too long. LOL...so not's not linger there shall we, heheheh....

Peace & blessings
7L

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Many religions and spiritual traditions have their roots in what they believe is a peaceful outcome, a social justice system and what they believe to be authentic love. In fact I believe that almost all will claim they do. The exception may be the church of Satan who don't necessarily worship a deity, but human individuality.

Hey there Cat. Hahaha...LOL.
Yes, I would say most do purport that very thing, agreed. And most traditions do contain many universal truths and have provided a structure for many to receive at least the most basic of these messages.

But yet most if not all also contain deeply ingrained, fundamental biases and prejudices against vast swathes of humanity (e.g., women, non-members, etc.) which they then use to judge members' AND non-members' morality, character, social worth, even their spiritual worth -- as well as to support a deeply unjust power-over hierarchy in society for millenia.

This is of course reflected in their own power-over hierarchy, typically, within the tradition, in which those in positions of power claim moral superiority and greater levels of consciousness from which to sustain and underwrite their current traditions and their larger social system.

The internal schism and foundational level of the hypocrisy -- of the integrity gap, the unfounded biases supposedly underwritten by Source, and the circular justifications (it's right because we've always said it is) -- are all to my mind ultimately unsustainable without a vast, thorough, and fundamental level of change. And IMO humanity is only just beginning to wake up to that realisation.

Because leaving spirituality alone and simply indulging in amoral hedonism hasn't worked well (has not satisfied the soul) for anyone either in modern society over at least the last half century, according to the books and to what we see all round. So we do need a community, a meetinghouse, a time and place and way to celebrate our spirituality according to whatever flavours suit...but IMO this will require that we reinvent and reinterpret nearly 100% of what we now call our "historic" spiritual traditions.

So, all these received doctrines and illuminated writings...well, in the past, "we" (i.e., those in power, who then told the rest of us what was what) thought they all meant "how to work within our currently broken, corrupt, and oppressive system, to manage and find some solace and perhaps aspire to wisdom etc". But IMO...that's not at all the "sum total" of what was meant by any illuminated universal truth, and most likely, it's perhaps only partially on target to start with. In fact, under the radical light of authentic love in manifest word and deed...and yes, in intent and thought as well...far, far more was "meant". And far, far more is contained within and awaiting our rediscovery, reinterpretation, and revised, updated, and expanded commentary. Just for a start.

So, IMO so very many of our conversations had here (and elsewhere with fellow travellers) are just the tip of the iceberg. Just the tip. And hallelujah already.

Tolerance is in the eye of the Tolerator I believe..
Every group of people will have a base line of tolerated behavior and a fine line which may not be publicly available, but which members non the less should not cross.

The fanatic suicide bomber does so in the belief he is keeping his brothers and sisters save from our misguided ways.
Remember that in his eyes we did invade his homeland and killed his people, plundered his lands for resources and destroyed what was once a wealthy nation with it's own laws and regulations..

Will we ever Tolerate his beliefs?
With Love
Eelco

This is a somewhat different area IMO...beliefs which determine which lives are worthy to exist and which lives can be disposed with are more in line with amoral totalitarianism, where death and slaughter are tools of war and social control.

The beliefs behind these actions, regardless of their label, may vary but IMO whatever leads one to take autonomous, extant civilian lives in the service of his or her beliefs has crossed a line in basic humanitarianism and must be contained and isolated for the highest good of all.

But again, the use of "religious" beliefs as tools of moral righteousness and divine sanction in service of politics, war, oppression, and death is a longstanding human sickness. A sin, i.e., "missing the mark", and by a very, very broad margin. It only further adds fuel to the toxic stew pot when the tradition itself promotes war and death, or violence and discrimination against women and non-members. These are very toxic and tired memes that arise all round the globe, that's for certain.

Imagine now if all known traditions were revisited under the radical light of authentic love...that is, the highest good of one and all equally, manifest in lovingkindness and equanimity. The spiritual beliefs of ourselves and of others would differ but none would not mandate war and violence as solutions, much less that "Source" had sanctified or directed their violent actions. This innate and radical restructuring of all spiritual traditions from within the space of authentic love would serve as the necessary check, or truth, or true conscience, to the violence and aggression all round. And this transformation and constant confrontation with both our inner hearts and the associated external spiritual traditions we stood with (now rooted in the heart-led consciousness) would IMO ultimately transform the political and social institutions. Such that politically-mandated war, death, and aggression were ever less resonant, and thus ever less relevant or applicable, in the face of our personal and collective realisations of authentic love and the truth of our centre.

In some ways, it seems we here and others there basically all need to rub our own faces in our own hypocrisy and stare it in the face, and as a result of it, allow ourselves to become so aware of it that we then consciously seek fundamental and manifest change.

Peace & blessings
7L

I am of a much simpler understanding of spirituality.

People all want the same. Once deprived or cheated out of what we want. We act out..
Those who feel in the right will often judge the acting out behaviour..

As for the deeply ingrained biases and predjudices.
A little history lesson into the origin of the scriptures of any religion, A little understanding or feeling into what life was like back then shows more often than not how those biases and predjudices came about. That said. I feel that every religion also has nuggets of gold within them. Most practitioners are good people who do what the scriptures tell them to and have genuine "spiritual" experiences which help them through their lives..

There's no need to revise any religion whatsoever although a closer look at today's gods of wealth and money may be a good place to start. A lot of people are holding the clarity of authentic love and explain it to what is known to them..

I know looking around often tells a different story.
I can only ask you to look beneath the surface and wish you good luck on the path you set out for your self. From where I am sitting it looks as if you are as in- and ex-clusive in your view of those around as anyone..

Not that that is a bad thing. It's part of being human I guess.
besides everybody does it..

With Love
Eelco

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Thank you for explaining that to me and it is very interesting.

There's not much I can comment about really, except as you may be aware of now, there can be no 'false God'.

Correct although some multi dimensional entities do pose as one.
That said I am still on the fence if the negation of the one would mean there is a true one out there.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

God appears to us in the way or the form our own heart and soul can relate to it.

This I do ascribe to to. Whatever potato or tomato he or she shows his or herself as. Only in the shared experience of said tomato it truth to be found.

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I also tend to 'interchange terms' in regards to Ascension fantasy and New-Age stuff using "Old-Age" idealism.
Ascension = transcendence = living in the awareness that more than what we perceive exists beyond our mere perception of it.

I did that for a while as well. Using the old-age nominator to distinguish between the late eighties early nineties new-age often naive thoughforms. And set them against a more grounded "spirituality" if you will

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I've taken to using a few of these terminologies myself now, because...as you know..."when in Rome, you speak Roman"...but I've had to dumb a lot of the concepts down to do so....which I cringe at, in regards to the richness of the Vedic literature.

So, if/when you have the time...no rush, of course...you may like to give comment on Qualified Monism...a.k.a "The Mountain that ain't there". lol

<3

Hmm Gonna have to brush up on my Vishishtadvaita first then.
My knowledge of hinduism stems from a period in my life where I followed a guru around. We sang an awful lot of mantra's and bhajan's. I was usually so filled with silence and love that I have nearly no recollection of what she taught about the veda's.

I did read the bhagavad gita and the book of krishna's leela in those days and was ready to surrender to krishna, but life had a different path in mind. Never felt compelled to fill my head with those knowledges again after that.

With Love
Eelco

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by catsquotl

Correct although some multi dimensional entities do pose as one.
That said I am still on the fence if the negation of the one would mean there is a true one out there.

A while ago, a few people said to me; "how do you know you are loving and talking to Lord Shiva and not a demon only pretending to be Lord Shiva?"

I thought long and hard about this...I wondered; "what would the motive of such a demon be, to pretend to be a Hindu Deity who fills my heart with so much love and light?" I also thought "If everything is Shiva, then even if it is a demon pretending to be Shiva, then it is also Shiva, right?". I understood there could be nothing more than or greater than what it was I had felt and experienced.

Even after this, others would say; "you are worshiping a demon, you should worship God instead...this 'Shiva' is only lying to you".

All I could say to that one is..."according to YOU" and then they'd be like "no, not according to ME, but according to my guru and my holy books" and all I could do, was say "well, my 'guru' and my 'holy books' are different to yours" and they would say "your guru and holy books are wrong and also demonic" and I would say "according to YOU"...yeah, it goes around in circles, does it not?

In the end, I be like "If you honestly believe I am only loving/talking to a demon...good for YOU" and then they usually lay the guilt/fear trip on me then...about how the 'real God' will 'punish' me for my sins, but I got over that one years ago...I usually say "if that is what God will do, then so be it"...but just to stand before Him will totally tear my heart out...punishment will mean nothing after that!

Suffice to say, I 'passed the test'.

This I do ascribe to to. Whatever potato or tomato he or she shows his or herself as. Only in the shared experience of said tomato it truth to be found.

Exactly...it is all a matter of perception. I like to think of God as a huge, multi-faceted diamond...and humans can only see one small facet/aspect OF it and usually that we choose to look at...or a drawn to, somehow...but by fully loving and appreciating this one aspect...understanding there's more to it, the whole diamond may be seen in full glory...this is the vishvarupa....this is what you showed me the other day in that picture...the vishvarupa is what Lord Krishna showed to Arjuna on the battlefield of Kurukshetra...what Mother Yashoda saw in Krishna's mouth while she tried to remove butter from there.

I did that for a while as well. Using the old-age nominator to distinguish between the late eighties early nineties new-age often naive thoughforms. And set them against a more grounded "spirituality" if you will

Good to see I'm not the only one who does this.

Hmm Gonna have to brush up on my Vishishtadvaita first then.

I never thought I'd live to see the day when another, besides myself would use that term on here.

My knowledge of hinduism stems from a period in my life where I followed a guru around. We sang an awful lot of mantra's and bhajan's. I was usually so filled with silence and love that I have nearly no recollection of what she taught about the veda's.

That was pretty balanced for me and I had an all-rounded experience, in that the mantras and bhajans were filled with an energetic vibration which was anything but silence...but so much love...so much love...we'd whip ourselves up into a frenzy over it and we also got the teachings of the Vedas (which I absorbed like a sponge) and the meditation and silence as well.

I did read the bhagavad gita and the book of krishna's leela in those days and was ready to surrender to krishna, but life had a different path in mind. Never felt compelled to fill my head with those knowledges again after that.

With Love
Eelco

I have also studied the Bhagavad Gita and the Srimad Bhagavatam and the Ramayana and Mahabharata etc.

I started off trying to love and worship Lord Krishna and I really wanted to love Him...but wanting to love is not the same as loving. I tried...but 'trying' is not 'doing'...there was just something I was missing. There was something deeper than the superficial...something I couldn't put my finger on...Krishna just seemed so wrapped up into this neat, presentable package....just too 'perfect' and 'aesthetically pleasing' to be God for me...and the only time I felt a bit of something, was when I saw the Narasimha Avatar, ripping the guts out of Hiranyakashipu....I mean, something was terribly amiss there. lol

It wasn't until I saw photos of Lord Shiva...I read the Shiva Puran...I got into studying Tantra...then I knew what it was I was 'missing' because that 'demon'...that 'demigod'....the Lord of all the Devas, totally stole my heart and I felt bhakti...Divine love for the very first time...and the rest, as we say, is history.