Pain

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Perspective

I've had a tendancy to want to avoid pain... or to let it consume me. lol
How do you find the balance?

At times, pain has been able to teach me a lot... but must it come at so much...pain? ;)

I hear you, Perspective. I really do. Mahakali makes a very important point about accepting your feelings...and what causes them. Very difficult...painful...but key to sanity and making some peace with your fears. And some of these can be pretty terrifying, if you're like me, so that's an accomplishment all on its own.

Here are a few other things I find helpful...since I've been dealing w/a lot of pain too these days...

• Retreating to the cave...only recommended for short durations (LOL)...
• Tonglen practise...taking suffering and giving love. You can just start with your own suffering and give back love.
• Open/inner heart meditation...sometimes this is very hard...but don't force it. Eventually you will make some progress, for certain...even I did...tho it's 1 step fwd, 2 steps back often...but at the very least, it will let you be more accepting of our humanity and frailty...no one can be on their game all the time.
• General meditative focus on love, sending love, and positive intention. Sometimes the love we give and the love we get is all that really gets us through.
• I'm supposed to be inviting the transcendentals to my meditations but I haven't quite got the hang of that yet...however acc'd to those wiser than me, it is supposed to be v helpful...

Here's to transforming our pain...and transcending our suffering
so we can be love and strength to ourselves & to those we love and who need us most...

All the best...
7L

[Perspective]

Originally Posted by Alternate Carpark

If there is a balance issue with all this, it's loving self that enables one to self confront an issue and knowing how much to push and how much to comfort within each exploration.
Some issues take a long time to heal, some don't.
Simple rule is, be toward yourself as a loving mother/father is toward a child as they heal or are hurting or have stuffed up or are disheartened by their shortcomings.

LOVE...empowers one to traverse the hellish valleys and also controls the rate of flow of what one experiences.
LOVE...the universal ingredient for every moment of one's life.
Your balance is discovered within the journey...love yourself as you walk.

Hi AC,
Thanks for your insights & help with this. I like how you take a proactive approach - exploring, instead of just reacting to chaos. I used to do that more often & you reminded me of how much it helped. I love what you wrote about love! So true & so wonderful!

In this book, I've been reading about not getting attached & to realizing non-self... which helps avoid excessive suffering. I'm beginning to see that many of my fears are unfounded - based on misconceptions. Still, I think that to love someone, is partly, to feel attached to them, or to prefer their presence over their absense... & love is, IMO, is what makes this world go 'round... love for self & others.

7Luminaries,
Thanks for your thoughts. I like meditation... & sometimes I feel like hiding out in a cave! :)
Really, nature is so healing!

Originally Posted by Perspective

Hi AC,
Thanks for your insights & help with this.

Always a joy to walk with you.

I like how you take a proactive approach - exploring, instead of just reacting to chaos. I used to do that more often & you reminded me of how much it helped. I love what you wrote about love! So true & so wonderful!

No matter how tumultuous the seas of life can be, you are the captain of your ship and you can steer it.
It's in the storms of life that one grows/evolves from deck hand to captain.
(Captain, according to your own self awareness and acceptance of responsibility of the role.)

In fact, without steering it within those harsh times, the outcome would be far worse.
It's not about never being in storms, it's about developing the ability to traverse these storms with skill and confidence and being enlivened within the experience.
These attributes can be summed up into being in a state of calm and joyful enthusiasm.
Within the storms of life, you remain tranquil and in control.
Within the surrounding chaos, if you are tranquil and clear, you will see there is a safe passage through.
The storm becomes, "no big deal"

In this book, I've been reading about not getting attached & to realizing non-self... which helps avoid excessive suffering. I'm beginning to see that many of my fears are unfounded - based on misconceptions. Still, I think that to love someone, is partly, to feel attached to them, or to prefer their presence over their absense... & love is, IMO, is what makes this world go 'round... love for self & others.

Attachment:
I offer this extreme example of it. A Leech attachs not 'cus it wants to or has a strong desire to.
It attaches 'cus it needs to, it's survival depends on it.
It lacks something, so it attaches to another to fulfill it's lack.

To be whole, complete in oneself, one does not need love from another.
And in that state of fullness, any love recieved from another is enjoyed, instead of used like medicine.
Do you go the movies 'cus you need to or simply for the pleasure of it?

Compare the difference if you were poor and someone gave you $100 or you were financially full and they gave you $100.
If you were poor you would spend the money on necessities. It helps, you are thankful, but with that 'joy' is also the pain of the continuation of your poverty.
If you were not poor you would spend the money on a 'treat' for yourself or for another. your joy would be more and there is no pain.

Consider how your fav dish tastes when you are very hungry compared to a normal meal time and you take your time to savour the food.
When hungry(need), do you savour the food or just get it to the stomach asap?

It appears that if there is no attachment or need for love, then love becomes obsolete.
On the contrary <--haha, I'm channeling some posh english dude.
"Where's my pipe and silk scarf."
"In the bed sitting room dear."
"Oh stuffed pheasant !"
"Roger!"

On the contrary. When one is in a state of fullness/completeness/wholeness/healed, love is absolutely breathtaking.
The slightest gift/expression of love offered by another has such a profound intensity to it, though this intensity is gentle.
It impacts you but it doesn't hit like a freakin tidal wave.
Unlike some people one walks by who have somehow managed to drown themselves in perfume or aftershave.

I was in the mall one day. I had a mental list of several things I had to do.
I had already done a couple and was purposely walking toward the next when this person walked by me.
Well, within seconds I was like,
"Hey....hey, um, what? Where am I going? Is there a backpack on my shoulder? Is that mine? It looks like mine, why do I have it?
Okay...I'm in the mall...why? Am I going to the bus...did I just get off the bus?
What day is it...what time is it...are those my feet...I need a coffee...ah coffee, I know what coffee is...yeah, I'll go have a coffee and work my way back to reality from there."

The scary part when experiencing or practicing detachment, is the moment you have to let go.
And I theorise for each individual's journey, there will be many other elements related to letting go that will be scary.
But that's it, they are all related to the letting go phase.

It's like one has been living on an island for many years.
This island does sustain one's existance, but it's far from ideal.
Well, it's that far from ideal that it's just enough to allow one to survive. One is not living joyfully or vibrantly. There is enjoyment of life, but it's little compared to the hard slog of simply staying alive.

Then someone arrives on a boat...yeah, "I'm on a boat!"...
someone arrives on a boat and describes the island they are on, and it's paradise compared to the survival island one has been on for most of one's life.

But in order to go to the new island, the ideal island, one has to leave this island behind.
Not only that, but the voyage across the sea is not very friendly looking and it looks like a long trip.
And who is this person proclaiming what their island is like, it might be a trick.
Trust and faith come into the equation.
Letting go of what is familar, to gain something better, though one has no proof it is better, takes trust and faith.

But, with journeys like these, these personal 'enlightenment/evolution/self awareness/healing journeys, the built in safety mechanism is, no matter what you do, you can always go back.

The scary part is taking the leap of faith into the unknown, because the unknown(living without attachment)cannot be understood, cannot be known, untill you let go and actually experience it.
Then and only then will the light of realisation come on and you will see the beauty of it , the reality and truth of it.

But remember, you can go back if you don't like it or it's not what you envisioned.
But if you don't try it, you will never know.
Oh, and of course, these leaps of faith aren't like in the movies with swirling music and beautiful women with perfect hair and white horses and rugged men with straight teeth.
(speaking of teeth, what with some of these americans with their uber white teeth?)
You still gotta go across that tumultuous sea which may contain sea sickness, you may get soaked and they may serve Quiche every night and play Musicals on the inboard cable network.
(well, those are my horrors. Insert your own here)

But once you begin the journey and especially once you arrive at the destination, you will see that a lot of the horrors were non existant.
Many of them were simply projected fears. Again, these fears cannot be dispelled until one takes the journey.

The journey, is where life is. The ideal one is looking for, is through the journey.
But if one is attached to this life, one cannot obtain the next.

I have shared this with you before but I feel to share it again.
My journey of detachment began when my wife left.
This was...hmm...15ish years ago.
I wasn't aware it was a journey of detachment till...3ish years ago..well, only when I began reading Eastern philophy via Osho did I understand the concepts of detachment.

Yet there I was,"losing" things one thing at a time. Looking back at it now, my iner self, my captain, knew exactly what was required for my healing.
The ultimate detachment for em was my suicide attempt.
Detaching from life altogether. What I didn't realise at that time was I was not detaching from life, but the dysfunctional prison life I had created and developed over 40 years.

I now, since that final detachment(well huge, I'm not clear if it's the last one) Now, since that...because of that final detachment experience, I now have the life I have been searching for all those years.
And rest assured, a huge portion of those 15 years were hellish, but if I had to do it all again, in light of this beautiful life I have now...bring it on becuase in total,
I have suffered most of my 40+ years, but compared to this life I have now, all that suffering, the pain of it is merely a foot note in my book of life.
Yet because of that suffering, the rest of the book is full of self empowerment, wisdom, joy and love.

Life...is disco?
No wait...~shakes fist at Mystery Men~
Life is...all of life, every moment of it is...a marvel to behold and experience.

EDIT: I so forgot this part. There is a huge difference between attachment and connection, though they appear to be the same.
Attachment is based on need from lack of something.
Connection is choosing to be with others, giving and recieving, based on a foundation of no lack.
So, to remove attachment from one's modus operandi does not mean one removes relationships and all this is wonderful about them.
It's like how much more wonderful it feels to be loved by another because they want to be with you, and not that they need to.
To enjoy another's company just because of who they are and not for what they can do for you is most wonderous for both giver and reciever.

[Perspective]

Originally Posted by Alternate Carpark

Always a joy to walk with you.

Thanks, & with you.

No matter how tumultuous the seas of life can be, you are the captain of your ship and you can steer it...

Good analogy.

It attaches 'cus it needs to, it's survival depends on it.
It lacks something, so it attaches to another to fulfill it's lack.

To be whole, complete in oneself, one does not need love from another.
And in that state of fullness, any love recieved from another is enjoyed, instead of used like medicine.

That makes sense. It seems common to look outside ourselves for fulfillment... I know personally, I have - because I couldn't imagine that I could feel really loved just on my own... infact, I've so often betrayed myself in one way or another, so that's the last place I'd look. But I'm starting to realize that everything I think or feel is, infact within me... Yes, there are external sources of inspiration, but they only "water the seed" within me.

<--haha, I'm channeling some posh english dude.
"Where's my pipe and silk scarf."
"In the bed sitting room dear."
"Oh stuffed pheasant !"
"Roger!"

I'm curious, AC. How, when & why do you channel others - spirits or other people living?

You still gotta go across that tumultuous sea which may contain sea sickness, you may get soaked and they may serve Quiche every night and play Musicals on the inboard cable network.
(well, those are my horrors. Insert your own here)

But once you begin the journey and especially once you arrive at the destination, you will see that a lot of the horrors were non existant.
Many of them were simply projected fears. Again, these fears cannot be dispelled until one takes the journey.

The journey, is where life is. The ideal one is looking for, is through the journey.
But if one is attached to this life, one cannot obtain the next.

Another good analogy... except the part about musicals... one person's heaven is another person's hell... which is another topic. :)

In a book about NDE's - I read how some spirits seem so burdened - held back, seemingly attached to this world - without being able to move on. It was explained that these spirits could not leave their gods here, so they could not move on to better. It gave me new meaning to "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me."

I now, since that final detachment(well huge, I'm not clear if it's the last one) Now, since that...because of that final detachment experience, I now have the life I have been searching for all those years.
And rest assured, a huge portion of those 15 years were hellish, but if I had to do it all again, in light of this beautiful life I have now...bring it on becuase in total,
I have suffered most of my 40+ years, but compared to this life I have now, all that suffering, the pain of it is merely a foot note in my book of life.
Yet because of that suffering, the rest of the book is full of self empowerment, wisdom, joy and love.

It's hard to imagine anyone being in such complete hell or heaven... isn't life about waves - ups & downs... Thank, God!
Do you think that such suffering is necessary for real joy, wisdom, self empowerment & love? You know how Jesus suffered a lot in the Garden of Gethsemene... do we all have to follow his example in that way?

Life...is disco?
No wait...~shakes fist at Mystery Men~
Life is...all of life, every moment of it is...a marvel to behold and experience.

When I meditate - it is a marvel... & it seems that's what your signature is about.

There is a huge difference between attachment and connection, though they appear to be the same.
Attachment is based on need from lack of something.
Connection is choosing to be with others, giving and recieving, based on a foundation of no lack.
So, to remove attachment from one's modus operandi does not mean one removes relationships and all this is wonderful about them.
It's like how much more wonderful it feels to be loved by another because they want to be with you, and not that they need to.
To enjoy another's company just because of who they are and not for what they can do for you is most wonderous for both giver and reciever.

It is a lighter, free-er more joyful experience. I admit, I've been really attached - but it didn't feel right - scared of losing what I thought I needed.
So many teachings are about looking outside ourselves for answers, etc... & I do think that we need others to learn & love... but the appreciation & love of others is enhanced when there is a good base of self-love & appreciation.

Originally Posted by Perspective

That makes sense. It seems common to look outside ourselves for fulfillment... I know personally, I have - because I couldn't imagine that I could feel really loved just on my own... infact, I've so often betrayed myself in one way or another, so that's the last place I'd look. But I'm starting to realize that everything I think or feel is, infact within me... Yes, there are external sources of inspiration, but they only "water the seed" within me.

For the West, psychiartry and psychology were the first inward explorations and they are only 100 or so years old.
The East has been inwardly exploring for centuries.
From the little I have read, Eastern thought has only been introduced to the West since the late 1800s and it took off in the 1960s.

Loving self appears to be a selfish act, but the more one loves self, the more one loves others.
It's that shift in priorities that feels uncomfortable. One reason is the whole doctrine of self sacrifice, putting oneself last.
Or it's arrogance to think highly of oneself.
It's humilty to not be deserving.
Though those two have nothing to do with loving self.
Loving self is simply taking good care of oneself, and doing one's best to do so.
It's not about, "Oh, I'm the most amazing person in the world, I love you."

I'm curious, AC. How, when & why do you channel others - spirits or other people living?

Channeling, like how an actor does. Instead of saying "I'm imitating an english person", I say channeling.
I'm not actually channeling, it's just a creative use of words.

Another good analogy... except the part about musicals... one person's heaven is another person's hell... which is another topic. :)

~laughs~ Yes, that's why I put in "(well, those are my horrors. Insert your own here)"

In a book about NDE's - I read how some spirits seem so burdened - held back, seemingly attached to this world - without being able to move on. It was explained that these spirits could not leave their gods here, so they could not move on to better. It gave me new meaning to "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me."

I, having had a long history with wanting to die, death was always a painful thing and attachment was a major issue.
Not wanting to leave this place to go to the next.
But since hospital and my beautiful time with Stumpy the Kookaburra, I have relooked at death, and I now have total peace with it.

And as you have read with the spirits, the key was burdens.
I saw, in my life, that if I died(back then) I would have regrets, unfinished business, unfulfillment and these would be burdens in the next life.
Those are what made the thoughts of death so scary and painful.

The battle between the effort to sort myself out against the pain of doing so.
Many days the pain felt unbarable that it pushed me to strong thoughts of suicide.
But the inner captain, in a non verbal way kept saying, no keep going, there is a vital clue just beyond this terrible storm.
And there always was.

It's hard to imagine anyone being in such complete hell or heaven... isn't life about waves - ups & downs... Thank, God!

Yes, that's why I said a huge portion was hellish, not all of it.
No dark valleys without bright mountain tops and vice versa.

Do you think that such suffering is necessary for real joy, wisdom, self empowerment & love? You know how Jesus suffered a lot in the Garden of Gethsemene... do we all have to follow his example in that way?

You follow what resonates with you.
You are inspired by what resonates with you.
As for suffering, realising I was wrong was painful, but it was also a most wonderous turning point of my life.
I do not know if it is necessary, all I know is my journey.
And in my journey, just beyond the pain that I have to go through, is the answer I'm searching for.

When I meditate - it is a marvel... & it seems that's what your signature is about.

In that stillness of mind, one's inner sight/insight becomes clearer and "life begins talking about itself".

It is a lighter, free-er more joyful experience. I admit, I've been really attached - but it didn't feel right - scared of losing what I thought I needed.
So many teachings are about looking outside ourselves for answers, etc... & I do think that we need others to learn & love... but the appreciation & love of others is enhanced when there is a good base of self-love & appreciation.

If you have just begun your journey regarding non attachment, well, in regards to all new journeys/practices/experiences,
one step at a time, no rush, eyes open, mind clear, and what is required will appear.

It's like how it's described in the bible.
That small voice that whispers to you. You won't be able to hear it if you're "busy".
Once you see and you can activate it, you can then go about your "busy" life but internally, you are still and quiet and your vision is clear.

Or it's like those 3D pictures. In order to see the 3D image in the 2D page, one must keep still and(various techniques) see the image.
Then, once the understanding of how to see it is "locked in", one can then move around and still see the image.

The hard part is the initial adjusting(change) to see the image. Once seen, it's always easy to re-see it.

Non attachment is the same. It's not till you see it via experiencing it do you see how much more wonderful it is compared to attachment.

Or...gee, there's a lot of ors...I feel like I'm on a Viking ship or something.

Or, like the cartoon of the 2D girl being taken into the 3D dimension by that guy, from the What The Bleep Doco.

She's frightened because...ah here's the clip

[Perspective]

Originally Posted by Alternate Carpark

The battle between the effort to sort myself out against the pain of doing so.
Many days the pain felt unbarable that it pushed me to strong thoughts of suicide.
But the inner captain, in a non verbal way kept saying, no keep going, there is a vital clue just beyond this terrible storm.
And there always was...

And in my journey, just beyond the pain that I have to go through, is the answer I'm searching for.

Seal-searching takes courage! A lot of people (including myself) avoid such pain at all costs. But just as the most excruciating pain of giving birth - I found ways to cope (don't ask how ) - & the joy of bringing life into this world was more than worth it! Not only that, but I never saw another human being the same again! They each could have been my baby!

It's like how it's described in the bible.
That small voice that whispers to you. You won't be able to hear it if you're "busy".
Once you see and you can activate it, you can then go about your "busy" life but internally, you are still and quiet and your vision is clear...

By busy, I'm guessing you mean mentally busy, especially. I agree - & sometimes it all gets too much! I think I'm one of those people who can't filter very well. Some people can ignore noises or demands, but I can't - it gets to be an overload if I don't take a break from it all.
Lately, I've been too busy juggling kids, house etc. & reading about meditation to meditate. But I do take those little moments, which are so refreshing!

Or...gee, there's a lot of ors...I feel like I'm on a Viking ship or something.

I like your humor, AC!

Or, like the cartoon of the 2D girl being taken into the 3D dimension by that guy, from the What The Bleep Doco.

She's frightened because...ah here's the clip

That was good! Thanks for sharing! I've been thinking of ways to teach my kids some of the things I'm learning - & that looks like a good way to - as well as deepen my own understanding.
Thanks again, AC.

You can learn to detach and offer nothing but unconditional love; thus, stopping the pendulum swing. Giving and receiving without any expectations.

I'm not there so I can't advocate but if the avoidance of pain but the continuation of experience and growth is what you're looking for then maybe focusing on unconditional love is something that can work.

[7luminaries]

I dont find detaching helpful. But trying to attach more equally, more fully, that I can get. I practise tonglen in that sense, and it is an amazing, truly healing meditation.

Sometimes, it's also helpful to do some other heart meditations as prep for tonglen, particularly if you're feeling low.

Originally Posted by Perspective

Seal-searching takes courage! A lot of people (including myself) avoid such pain at all costs.

Yet it's the act of avoiding that perpetuates the issue that robs one of living free from pain.
With the cost analogy, it's a quick profit to avoid pain, but the huge dept has remained.
Facing and dealing with each pain reduces the debt till one day you are finally free.

But just as the most excruciating pain of giving birth - I found ways to cope (don't ask how ) - & the joy of bringing life into this world was more than worth it! Not only that, but I never saw another human being the same again! They each could have been my baby!

And does the pain of childbirth linger after giving birth?
So too with pain of inner issues once the source is dealt with and healing is complete.

By busy, I'm guessing you mean mentally busy, especially. I agree - & sometimes it all gets too much!

Yes, mental and emotional busy. And how does one be busy? By choosing to.
I concur, it can get all too much, I did try to kill myself for this very reason.
But now, with all issues confronted and dealt with, I now have the free life I worked for for all those years.

I think I'm one of those people who can't filter very well.

"As within, so without. You cannot think one thing and produce another." - Emmet Fox

Some people can ignore noises or demands, but I can't - it gets to be an overload if I don't take a break from it all.

"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make our world." - The Buddha

Lately, I've been too busy juggling kids, house etc. & reading about meditation to meditate. But I do take those little moments, which are so refreshing!

But if you have been creating moments, then you are not too busy, Yes? Busy, yes...too busy, no.
Those little moments will all add up, each step on the journey to transformation.

I like your humor, AC!

~bows and smiles~

That was good! Thanks for sharing! I've been thinking of ways to teach my kids some of the things I'm learning - & that looks like a good way to - as well as deepen my own understanding.
Thanks again, AC.

Everything you are recieving Perspective, is enabling you to heal/transform/be free.
Most times you see no external change, but change is happening.
I was pleasantly suprised to find a cure for depression. Did not see that coming at all.
Every moment you meditate, every time you read a book, ask questions, ponder your situation, etc, they are all steps toward your goal.
Everytime you acknowledge your pain and become aware there is a reason for it, this too is progress.
Self awareness - the ability to see, the willingness to see.

[Perspective]

Dynamist,
Thanks for your comments. How amazing it would be to experience unconditional love! But like you I'm not there yet either. Still, it's something to strive for... starting within... & then moving outward.

7lumminaries,
Thanks for sharing.
What is tonglen? I just searched & it seems to be all about giving to others, which seems kindof unbalanced to me. I still struggle with co-dependency so I'm sensitive about the need to balance love of self with love of others.

I agree about the detaching in the emotional sense... it seems to be the opposite of love/care. But I realize that it is good to detach from "hang-ups" that can be like obsessions.

Originally Posted by Alternate Carpark

Yet it's the act of avoiding that perpetuates the issue that robs one of living free from pain.
With the cost analogy, it's a quick profit to avoid pain, but the huge dept has remained.
Facing and dealing with each pain reduces the debt till one day you are finally free.

That's true about avoiding pain...sometimes it's just habit. I'm trying to not listen to music all of the time when I'm in the car. Or instead of keeping myself too busy to think about painful experiences, to take some time to think & feel it through. But it seems obvious that pain is & will always be part of life... here & there. But you're probably talking about the extra pain we add on top of the painful experiences life lets us have.

"As within, so without. You cannot think one thing and produce another." - Emmet Fox
"We are what we think. All that we are arises with our thoughts. With our thoughts we make our world." - The Buddha

Thoughts are powerful & every feeling & experience is filtered through them...
Still, there are external circumstances & people that are what they are, no matter what you think.
For example, If you babysat for me 24-7 for a week... it would be a very enlightening experience, to even you!

Everything you are recieving Perspective, is enabling you to heal/transform/be free.
Most times you see no external change, but change is happening.
I was pleasantly suprised to find a cure for depression. Did not see that coming at all.
Every moment you meditate, every time you read a book, ask questions, ponder your situation, etc, they are all steps toward your goal.
Everytime you acknowledge your pain and become aware there is a reason for it, this too is progress.
Self awareness - the ability to see, the willingness to see.

That's my goal too - to overcome depression. I know that pain is there for a reason, just as physical pain helps us stop doing something painful & take it easy so we can heal.
Thanks for your insights, AC.