Origin and Conclusion of the Universe?

Originally Posted by peteyzen

I like the way this thread is going guys and gals,
I have struggled with the whole, `We actually know nothing ` concept for years.
1) We are told by classic eastern philosophy thAT THIS WORLD IS AN ILLUSION (MAYA). (oops pressed the caps key by mistake, sorry folks , I`m not making any resounding statement here, just couldn`t be bothered to delete and re type, Do you guys ever get that???)

2) For the most part those of us who discuss spiritual matters here have (and I apologise to those of you that have definite serious undeniable experiences) very few tangible definite experiences so our discussions are really just philosophical debates, that take place through the illusion of maya. It makes me laugh sometimes when people get upset or worked up because their `Point of view` is attcked or criticised by another person, when in truth non of us no any bloody thing really!!!

Firstly, if this turns out to be a double-post, sorry but my last reply came straight in after your's peteyzen.

There are countless concepts as to the workings of the world, which I think most people struggle with weighing-up simply because of this fact! Regardless, I agree with you that these discussions are philosophical debates but listen because this is KEY.

The more that people keep communicating and keep discussing, the closer we will all be to different truths. I have only attended this forum for a few weeks yet the more I discuss AND listen, the more I feel that I am learning TRUTHS.

However, peteyzen, to say that none of us actually bloody know anything is a misconception. Human beings know many things. The only thing stopping us from learning certain truths is our lack of spiritual discipline and an inability to listen to each other.

Originally Posted by kundalini

Hi 8-infinite-8,

Thanks for your well-balanced reply. I'm reading a book at the moment called 'Discover Atlantis' by Diana Cooper. She claims to be in touch with a 'Lord of Light' by the name of Lord Kumeka. In this book, we discover that the Atlantean's are US! What do you think of that?

Anyways, 8-infinite-8, I also read in another thread that you were quite the believer in the 2012 prophecy! I think it was also you who wrote that we are living in exciting times! I was just thinking about that before I read your post. That is synchronicity.

I agree absolutely though that there is still too much negative energy in this world and that this is blocking our spiritual gifts. However, I also think that this could change quite rapidly. Sometimes I do not think that the year 2012 for a shift in human consciousness is unlikely, sometimes I think it is highly likely.

Hi again Kundalini,
That sounds like a very interesting book, is this Lord Kumeka a being that she communicates with from "the other side" ?
I think that it's definately possible that some of us have lived in atlantis seeing as though it's almost fact now that we ourselves have lived many times before, going by records & books by many hypnotherapists.
I love sychronicity, it makes me smile every time .

I will definately look that book up, another book you may find to be of interest is, "secrets & mysteries of the world" by Sylvia Browne, she talks about Atlantis & relays information from her spirit guides about how highly technologically advanced the Atlanteans were, which ultimately led to their demise, & aparently they were all between 7 & 12 feet tall, pretty cool.

I don't think it's coincidence, that I also think that a shift in consciousness could happen very quickly & I too have a hunch something special is about to come about in the not too distant future in 2012, thats not to say I'm getting my hopes up, but it's exciting to think about anyways & quite frankly theres something about that subject of 2012 that just keeps popping up on my radar that seems too hard to doubt. Theres just something in me that wont let me doubt its truth.
Blessings

Yes, Lord Kumeka is 'kind of' from the 'other side'. I'm not sure where he's from actually!

I have not read that particular book by Slyvia Browne. I have read many of her other books though ( The Other Side And Back, Book Of Dreams etc ) and I find her work interesting. Whilst I am a believer in many things, I know that I would like to see all of these top mediums working together instead of all releasing separate books. I do not see why they do not as this would promote co-operation and solidarity. Then again, it may just be that it is practicably inconvienient for them.

I would like to see a shift in consciousness in 2012 but the most important thing is that I and you, as individual's, have shifts in consciousness as this will benefit the whole, do you understand what I mean? I believe it was Glorymist in another thread who said,' we would just be using things as an excuse for other people to do things for us' ( or something like that ).

Originally Posted by kundalini

Whilst I am a believer in many things, I know that I would like to see all of these top mediums working together instead of all releasing separate books. I do not see why they do not as this would promote co-operation and solidarity. Then again, it may just be that it is practicably inconvienient for them.
I would like to see a shift in consciousness in 2012 but the most important thing is that I and you, as individual's, have shifts in consciousness as this will benefit the whole, do you understand what I mean?

Yes I understand what you mean, but, in my experience, things of this nature can't really be forced.
Even though I feel I cannot fail my journey & awakening is inevitable at some time for me, I still continue to go through slumps & ruts like most, but each time I do, I learn something I would not have, had I not gone through the slump. I just trust in the force that is guiding me no matter what the experience.

I think the main reason why they dont all work together as authors is because it is fairly rare you will find 2 people with the same belief systems & if they were all to co-author a book, their may be many conflincting opinions. I know Wayne Dyer & Deepak Chopra have done a book together though.

I listen to hayhouse radio all the time & every month I think they have something called a "you can do it conference" & there are alot of popular teachers among the gathering, such as: Sylvia Browne,Wayne Dyer,Summer Mcstravick,John Holland & heaps more.

They all have there own radio shows & I listen to HEAPS of them, you can download past shows from hayhouseradio.com wich I do, it really is worth the listen & it's free.
You know sometimes you just don't feel like reading, I just wack on the headphones & let them throw some ideas in the air for me to contemplate, it's pretty cool.

If you're interested I would recommend you listen to: Sonia Choquette, John Holland, Wayne Dyer, Venus Andrecht, & Sylvia Browne are my favourites.
Worth a gander anyway

Very interesting reply.

I understand what you mean about these things cannot be forced but is that really so? With the free will that human beings are granted, we can FORCE ourselves should we be willing to do so. This is what I meant, in a sense.

I understand too about the conflicting opinions between authors of such books. Deepak Chopra, I read his SynchroDestiny book. Excellent and detailed outlook on things.

hayhouseradio.com sounds interesting too and if I find the time I shall tune in and drop out! Seriously though, it could be 2012 is a self-fulfilling prophecy or it could just be a prophecy. I guess one would never really know about this if the shift in consciousness were to come about. I have read some interesting theories though.

I have read an article by Wayne Dyer which was posted by somebody on these forums and his reasoning regarding the laws of the universe appeal to me. It may have been you 8-infinite-8 who posted it.

Thanks for reading, Kundalini.

8-infinite-8 - - your answer surprises me. And - - since I am just getting back to it now - - and see there have been a number of posts since you replied to me - - I'll start back at that reply to me - - and see where we go from there.

It is surprising to me how the world today lives so much on false assumption. It amazes me how a person who knows nothing about another - - can just flat come out and say - - "you believe or know this or that - - or do not know this or that." I mean - - common courtesy would suggest that a person ASKS first - - before drawing such conclusions.

You state that I do not know why we exist. Please - - and I am asking nicely - - please understand that statement of yours to be your assumption. And - - I will also add this - - if you asked why we exist - - and I told you - - and you disputed it - - that would have *nothing* to do with its actual validity or not. It would only show your acceptance level of it.

This is not the first time I have run into this. Other people make so many claims - - such as - - "No one knows this - - " or "No one can understand that - - " and etc.

If that were the case - - the entire purpose / nature of the Path would only be an exercise in futility.

There are a couple of things you seem to overlook. One - - if you make such a statement - - to me - - or anyone else - - it is very obvious that you will NOT find out from them - - or from Life - - the "reason" why we exist. Attitude and expectation have a LOT to do with what one realizes in any particular lifetime. Two - - there "will" be no "evidence" as far as "proving" anything of a truly spiritual nature. The physical / psychic world understanding of what is - - cannot prove spiritual existence. If you wait for "evidence" - - as does so many others so this is NOT a criticism here - - but you will wait - - "forever."

Third - - you didn't "say" - - silence as opposed to music. You talked of silence. I addressed - - silence. The fact that there is Divine Music in IT all is another facet altogether. To try and bring them together so you can use one to negate the other is - - um - - "odd." But - - common. :->

To say the the perceptions of the human mind / human state of consciousness is limited - - is quite obvious. But - - what about the perceptions of Soul ?? Since that is indeed what we are - - by any name you wish to call It - - and one can most definitely learn to perceive of and thru Soul Itself - - which would be the Real Self - - then I would not be talking about the human state of consciousness now, would I ??

If you ask me can I / do I know and understand from the level of Soul - - I will not say - - for the reasons addressed above. Mostly - - you wouldn't believe me - - so why say so.

I guess my whole point is - - and I mean this in a gentle way - - and if you can accept it - - that is the way I wrote this entry for I mean no harsh criticism or ill intent - - my point is that if yo close so many doors - - you do just that. You close - - doors. You only make the Path longer. Most everyone does this - - without a doubt. The closing of doors and making the Path longer than it needs to be. But - - feel fortunate in that this has just been pointed out to you - - and in the kind understanding that this is just a part of the entire process.

What you do NOW - - is up to you. It is not up to anyone else. You can continue to say - - "You don't know this - - " or that "These things do not do this or that - - " or that "There is no evidence and I'm not going to believe until there is - - " - - or whatever.

There is an old saying - - "Only the brave and the adventurous know God."

Consider that when you consider what I have just said - - and what the underlying implications might be.

I truly mean no disrespect or anger here. None. I always thought your other entries to be quite profound and rather deep. Your reply to me was - - as I said - - surprising.

I wish you well.

Good Grief ! ! Then I scroll up and find out that Kundalini basically told you the same thing ! ! But then your reply to Kundalini - - was that "we" are meant to be limited. If you keep in mind that there actually is a "we" within each individual - - and that the lower world facets of body / emotions / and mind are indeed limited - - but that Soul is not - - if yo keep these straight - - then you have resolved your own dilemma. A part of "we" - - is limited. A part of "we" - - is most definitely not.

I have been promoting the whole concept of the "school room" for a long time. It is *not* my concept. The *world* will not get much better. But - - YOU - - can. Don't wait for the world to catch up to certain levels of awareness before you give yourself permission to accept "evidence." Move forward on your own. If you believe in manifestation - - and then claim that "it's not supposed to get any better" - - um - - what are you telling yourself there ?? Let the world / school room be what it is. YOU - - move on. Be bold / adventurous.

Peteyzen - - one of the HUGE facets to the whole concept of maya - - and why this world is illusion - - and why it all just doesn't seem to get better either overall or individually - - is because the inner controls the outer. The outer world is brought on by what we believe inside. THAT is the reality to which all adheres to - - whether they know it or not. And - - since few of us have any real self-discipline to take charge of the inner world - - the old patterns continue creating the outer, illusionary manifestations of our own beliefs.

The whole bit about us knowing *nothing* - - just leads many to take even LESS charge of their inner world - - only to the extent that they force their way into Silence. Then - - what is going to happen to their outer world ?? Do they expect it to just disappear ?? The old patterns are still there ! ! Still in existence. The fact that we deny that they control us means nothing ! ! The fact that we stick our head in the sand and then claim that the sand doesn't exist - - is - - sad ! ! And SO many are doing that these days. You and I have talked a bit about this.

Kundalini - - I am beginning to really like you ! ! :-> But - - you too - - remember that nothing needs to "block OUR spiritual gifts." Just do not let the negativity block YOURS. Again - - let the world be what it is. Stand strongly in the center and let the rest swirl around you.

I am not going to address the books / authors you brought up. If they fulfill you - - live their beliefs. If you need to move beyond them - - then the bold adventure continues.

Originally Posted by Glorymist

8-infinite-8 - - your answer surprises me. And - - since I am just getting back to it now - - and see there have been a number of posts since you replied to me - - I'll start back at that reply to me - - and see where we go from there.

It is surprising to me how the world today lives so much on false assumption. It amazes me how a person who knows nothing about another - - can just flat come out and say - - "you believe or know this or that - - or do not know this or that." I mean - - common courtesy would suggest that a person ASKS first - - before drawing such conclusions.

You state that I do not know why we exist. Please - - and I am asking nicely - - please understand that statement of yours to be your assumption. And - - I will also add this - - if you asked why we exist - - and I told you - - and you disputed it - - that would have *nothing* to do with its actual validity or not. It would only show your acceptance level of it.

This is not the first time I have run into this. Other people make so many claims - - such as - - "No one knows this - - " or "No one can understand that - - " and etc.

If that were the case - - the entire purpose / nature of the Path would only be an exercise in futility.

There are a couple of things you seem to overlook. One - - if you make such a statement - - to me - - or anyone else - - it is very obvious that you will NOT find out from them - - or from Life - - the "reason" why we exist. Attitude and expectation have a LOT to do with what one realizes in any particular lifetime. Two - - there "will" be no "evidence" as far as "proving" anything of a truly spiritual nature. The physical / psychic world understanding of what is - - cannot prove spiritual existence. If you wait for "evidence" - - as does so many others so this is NOT a criticism here - - but you will wait - - "forever."

Third - - you didn't "say" - - silence as opposed to music. You talked of silence. I addressed - - silence. The fact that there is Divine Music in IT all is another facet altogether. To try and bring them together so you can use one to negate the other is - - um - - "odd." But - - common. :->

To say the the perceptions of the human mind / human state of consciousness is limited - - is quite obvious. But - - what about the perceptions of Soul ?? Since that is indeed what we are - - by any name you wish to call It - - and one can most definitely learn to perceive of and thru Soul Itself - - which would be the Real Self - - then I would not be talking about the human state of consciousness now, would I ??

If you ask me can I / do I know and understand from the level of Soul - - I will not say - - for the reasons addressed above. Mostly - - you wouldn't believe me - - so why say so.

I guess my whole point is - - and I mean this in a gentle way - - and if you can accept it - - that is the way I wrote this entry for I mean no harsh criticism or ill intent - - my point is that if yo close so many doors - - you do just that. You close - - doors. You only make the Path longer. Most everyone does this - - without a doubt. The closing of doors and making the Path longer than it needs to be. But - - feel fortunate in that this has just been pointed out to you - - and in the kind understanding that this is just a part of the entire process.

What you do NOW - - is up to you. It is not up to anyone else. You can continue to say - - "You don't know this - - " or that "These things do not do this or that - - " or that "There is no evidence and I'm not going to believe until there is - - " - - or whatever.

There is an old saying - - "Only the brave and the adventurous know God."

Consider that when you consider what I have just said - - and what the underlying implications might be.

I truly mean no disrespect or anger here. None. I always thought your other entries to be quite profound and rather deep. Your reply to me was - - as I said - - surprising.

I wish you well.

Good Grief ! ! Then I scroll up and find out that Kundalini basically told you the same thing ! ! But then your reply to Kundalini - - was that "we" are meant to be limited. If you keep in mind that there actually is a "we" within each individual - - and that the lower world facets of body / emotions / and mind are indeed limited - - but that Soul is not - - if yo keep these straight - - then you have resolved your own dilemma. A part of "we" - - is limited. A part of "we" - - is most definitely not.

I have been promoting the whole concept of the "school room" for a long time. It is *not* my concept. The *world* will not get much better. But - - YOU - - can. Don't wait for the world to catch up to certain levels of awareness before you give yourself permission to accept "evidence." Move forward on your own. If you believe in manifestation - - and then claim that "it's not supposed to get any better" - - um - - what are you telling yourself there ?? Let the world / school room be what it is. YOU - - move on. Be bold / adventurous.

Peteyzen - - one of the HUGE facets to the whole concept of maya - - and why this world is illusion - - and why it all just doesn't seem to get better either overall or individually - - is because the inner controls the outer. The outer world is brought on by what we believe inside. THAT is the reality to which all adheres to - - whether they know it or not. And - - since few of us have any real self-discipline to take charge of the inner world - - the old patterns continue creating the outer, illusionary manifestations of our own beliefs.

The whole bit about us knowing *nothing* - - just leads many to take even LESS charge of their inner world - - only to the extent that they force their way into Silence. Then - - what is going to happen to their outer world ?? Do they expect it to just disappear ?? The old patterns are still there ! ! Still in existence. The fact that we deny that they control us means nothing ! ! The fact that we stick our head in the sand and then claim that the sand doesn't exist - - is - - sad ! ! And SO many are doing that these days. You and I have talked a bit about this.

Kundalini - - I am beginning to really like you ! ! :-> But - - you too - - remember that nothing needs to "block OUR spiritual gifts." Just do not let the negativity block YOURS. Again - - let the world be what it is. Stand strongly in the center and let the rest swirl around you.

I am not going to address the books / authors you brought up. If they fulfill you - - live their beliefs. If you need to move beyond them - - then the bold adventure continues.

Well Glorymist, I find that alot of what you have written is VERY condascending in parts & actually very contradicting also.
I've never read an essay on why I'm wrong, haha, quite odd really.
I'm not even going to mention where you were wrong because I don't feel the need to defend anything I've said, because no one is perfect & what I've said is ALL up for interepretation, you interperpret it how you wish.

I would ask that you be so critical of your self as you are of others also.
To give you a brief discription of my opinion, I think your primary statement was in itself a "limited" perspective in that, It is a possibility that silence was created & your statement about that was very blunt & not really open for discussion, & the fact it was directed at me, was as if you were making me wrong, but, I guess that could of been interpreted the wrong way also.
I'm not one for focusing much on making myself superior to others so thats all I'm going to say, maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm being contradicting but, there's just too much there to process so this is just a brief summary on the vibe I got. I like to focus on the interesting stuff, not on why I'm wrong.

Blessings

Originally Posted by kundalini

Very interesting reply.
I understand what you mean about these things cannot be forced but is that really so? With the free will that human beings are granted, we can FORCE ourselves should we be willing to do so. This is what I meant, in a sense.

Hi Kundalini , Indeed i know what you mean,tis interesting.
I think what I meant by saying "these things cannot be forced" is at times I dont feel like reading spiritual books & I just can't be bothered & I just sort of let my self get almost out of control in a way, not too bad, but i feel at times I need to release some emotions so I can then rejuvinate & accentuate, even, the divinity in me.
It could even be this stage of spiritual development, Im not sure, but I think there is a part of me that is making decisions that are not on a conscious level, for my own good.
So i guess my proposal is that even when you think you're in control of yourself (emotions/thoughts), you're still being controlled by a higher part of your self, that is still your free will, but you're just not conscious of it. So that way, no matter what you do, you're doing it for a reason because you're still making the decision sub-consciously .
I like to believe this is true, Does that make sense?

Blessings

[peteyzen]

Hi folks, in reply to both kundalini and glory, I would say just this.and please understand that I believe in maya, god, the benefits of spiritual practice the end goal of the human condition etc.,
Very few people however can really do anything spiritual, ( by that I mean an action beyond what is achievable physically)the odd clairvoyant is quite capable, but for most thier abilities are clouded, it is not clear. One or two healers have some success but even that is unpredictable. There are stories, oh yes wonderful stories, of great masters and their abilities and we thrive on them , hoping that one day some of this stuff will happen to us.

Just because a teaacher can teach you to leave your body does not neccesarily mean that everything else they teach you is exactly right. I can teach someone to log on to a computer, it does not make me Bill gates, if you know what I mean.
But all too many folks on this site are quick to criticise other opinions and dash peoples beliefs when in truth, we do not know in actuality what the truth is, and as I mentioned above everything is ` allegedly` being viewed through the illusion of maya.
So all I was trying to say was chill folks, we know nothing for sure.and show some respect for others views you may not be right.

That doesn`t apply to me obviously! I have it all sewn up.
Love light and laugh folks.