Objectivity is slowly but surely dumbing me right down.

Originally Posted by Light Seeker

I have spent so long trying to rationalize the evil that folk do that it might possibly be detrimental to me personally.

I have tried to understand and see things from the view of the perpetrators of , and in no particular order.

The Romans
The Third Reich
Paedophiles
Rapists
Murderers
The self called Caliphate of Islamic State
The Hiroshima and Nagasaki atrocities
The Holocaust

and many , many more.. But I can't help feeling I am doing a dis service to myself in blindly accepting these realities as anything other than pure abomination of the most damnable order. I don't really know why I am asking you guys as I fully accept that the foulness of our deeds as "humanity" is something I myself personally need to reconcile.

Hi Light Seeker,

I can quite easily and dispassionately explain away anything on your list. I can do it without even making reference to vague words like "evil" or "bad".

For example, Roman Leaders of the Roman age of Power and third Reich/ Holocaust etc: Lust for Power. If people are separated from the common man then people just become statistics. Also, anyone fighting for this kind of thing will justify it based on the ideal that they are killing for a superior race of people who deserve more than "lower" people.

Paedophiles?? How are they evil? This does not make sense. This is just a condition whereby, for whatever reason, a person (male or female) has an exclusive sexual attraction to prepubescent children. It is psychological term and is generally accepted as a mental aberration. I actually feel quite sorry for them.

Did you mean child sex abusers, pimpers of children, child pornographers and the like? These are not necessarily paedophiles, they are just people who want money, like power over people or like to take advantage of people who are vulnerable. Some people even refer to rapists of girls of 14 as paedophiles. That is simply rape of a vulnerable person, it is not a mental condition to have lust for a person of child bearing ability.

Rapist: More or less the same as what I just described above. I see no difficulty in understanding this.

Murdering is too broad to even attempt to just put in a single category. You would need to look at each scenario and that would take too long in this post.

Islamic state - same as the first 2.

The bombing of the Japanese is the mentality of: "The end justifies the means." I am not saying is is justified but people can easily justify it even to this day without even the slightest bit of guilt.

Maybe it is more a case of me seeing actions and consequences rather than "good" and "evil". I find most of the things mentioned to be unpleasant in nature but, like I said, I would have no problem understanding the reasons at all. I can be pretty certain that much worse things will be seen in our lifetimes (unless you are dying soon!).

The desire for money or power can override anything. People are just animals with desires. The desires of humans seem to be far more complex than other animals. Morality is something that is programmed into people.

[Mr Interesting]

Originally Posted by Light Seeker

Thus , I am encouraged to accept these foulnesses as ever I did because they are a part of our reality irrespective of what I personally feel about them.

The dumbing down continues apace. Despite or In Spite of that part of Light and Love within me that rages against the darkness of the Hatred in the World.

Oh, you lovely romantic you, in all possible good taste I say this, I too have seen and felt the great wonders of creation and it heeds me to carry such weights as I can bear though my back be bent my tears are clear...

Accept or not accept? That's a question of measuring, decision making that isn't needed, it's there, it is and will carry on regardless of your favour or dis-favour. You just gotta let it unfold as it will, that's kinda giving every aspect of possibility it's due respect... it's beautiful, and I know I say give... but it's not yours.

[Light Seeker]

Lovely Romantic Sean ? I don't know, I think Cheesus Toast exemplified my dumbing down bit having evidently been dumbed down in the same way I was by attempting to illustrate by rationally squaring all the madness away logically..

Three things are going on here with me.

I know bad stuff is happening in this world as I type.

I know rationally I accept this (because apparently I have no choice but to accept that which is happening)

How I feel about it however is that some or maybe even a lot of the stuff that is happening now, breaks my heart..

You see, and doubtlessly experience a similar dilemma... It appears to me that being the change you want to come about in the world , does not and never quiet has , cut the mustard..

I have read all the stuff about collective shifts and what not and yet here we are destroying and creating as ever we did..I like the creating bit but do have something of a dim veiw of destroying on the scale to which we appear to be exposed.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by Light Seeker

Lovely Romantic Sean ? I don't know, I think Cheesus Toast exemplified my dumbing down bit having evidently been dumbed down in the same way I was by attempting to illustrate by rationally squaring all the madness away logically..

Three things are going on here with me.

I know bad stuff is happening in this world as I type.

I know rationally I accept this (because apparently I have no choice but to accept that which is happening)

How I feel about it however is that some or maybe even a lot of the stuff that is happening now, breaks my heart..


Sometimes the heart break is where the holding sits.

You see, and doubtlessly experience a similar dilemma... It appears to me that being the change you want to come about in the world , does not and never quiet has , cut the mustard..

In reflection of the whole being the change regardless of not being able to change things is part of being the change. Acceptance of the external as it is is in you to be that change.

I have read all the stuff about collective shifts and what not and yet here we are destroying and creating as ever we did..I like the creating bit but do have something of a dim veiw of destroying on the scale to which we appear to be exposed.

Perhaps you need to sit with your dim view for a while and be ok its not seeking light...

[Mr Interesting]

I went up to the farm yesterday and after some coffee, as when I arrive at midday it's usually me waking up my old friend who loves staying up all night painting ( and who incidentally is doing some very interesting views out of his second story window across this farm thing) he tells me he's done the walkabout and found some interesting and decayiing piles of old steel so I'm hurry, hurry and hurry, let's go see. No gumboots for either of us but if you step carefully, It's a cow place, then tuft to tuft can pretty much keep one out of the sloshy bits... and every so often there's the tell tale of petroleum sitting on the hoof puddles in that lovely mirrored blue tinge on the face of the stored water.

Next time I go up it's gumboots and a trailer and various saws to cut off old tyres 'cause I'm after all those lovely old truck rims to make my wall building here where I live that much easier. The thing is with a whole bunch of old bricks and various rocks and suchlike wall building is time consuming and laborious, even whilst the finished product is a lovely variegated thing, so throwing in a whole bunch of big wheel rims well rusted and oozing nostalgic vitality simply halves the work and even makes it all look so much better.

The thing is I'm just getting on with my job, doing what I think is fun and keeps me healthy in body, mind and soul and whether it changes the world or not just isn't my business, it's the worlds business to decide whether what I'm doing might even be relevant to those big ol' questions of what is actually relevant... Who cares?

For me it comes basically down to alot of the world's greatest minds spend far too much time contemplating their own navel's, and not a good orange either, when they could have been out there having fun and getting dirty just like all the kid's who forget Mum's going to give them a good thrashing for getting so covered in grime and stainy, yucky stuff.

Live by the washing machine, die by the washing machine.

[Light Seeker]

Live by the washing machine, die by the washing machine.

Ultimately I guess that's about the size of it.. But it don't stop me lamenting the other stuff , and I do lament it very deeply at times sadly.

[Mr Interesting]

Eckhart, in the Power of Now, wrote that compassion was equal amounts of joy and sadness... a very profound statement that doesn't necessarily suggest they have to be balanced all the time, one way or the other that is. Peace Bro!!! with dollops of sunshine city and sparkly playful horsies galavanting.

Actually one other neato thing yesterday was this tiny little dog having chasy fun with about 10 odd bobby calves, and okay those bobbies are destined for slaughter but while the sun is shining fun is the constant.

Hi again Light Seeker,

I do not let it get me down (or maybe I simply avoid letting it get me down). What ever is imaginable will happen.

I get the feeling that philosophies like Scientology imply that people are inherently "good" and we need to find a way to remain that way. Things like Christianity imply that people should try to be "good".

I feel that we are neither good nor bad; we are neutral. We just live our lives and whatever goes around comes around.

I saw 2 particular films just recently, "machine gun preacher" and "Lord of war". They both show atrocities and the unfairness of people imposing their will on others and creating a world of hell. Incidentally I do not think it has anything to do with skin color - I believe it is just an indication of what happens when people live in a certain type of way.

Even though those people do not want those terrible things to happen they will continue to happen. I highly doubt people going over and teaching Christianity is not going to change anything. Because it exists it will continue to happen because it is learnt behaviour.

I would suggest that, as long as the capacity for something is possible, then likelihood is that it will be done. One could look deep into the recesses of the mind and conjure up horrendous things. I would not need to write them down in black and white. If they can be imagined then someone somewhere will carry out those deeds/ atrocities and unfair things to other people.

Either way, I feel that peace always comes from within. One line in the film Lord of war is:

They say "Evil prevails when good men fail to act," what they ought to say is "Evil prevails!"

What I would possibly suggest is, "whatever is imaginable can happen... nothing prevails."

I have had the notion that meditation is the process of cessation of thought. Thought may be wonderful but, in the same way as you can imagine pleasant things, you can imagine unpleasant things. You have the freewill to do either.

[QT Pie]

What you are doing, is seeing the growth pattern. You are seeing the evolution of details that cause a person and people to grow and learn. Inherently something is weighing and discovering its own growth patterns. You recognize your imperfect life has caused the beauty of your growth. You embrace self and the world at once. When you see the good and bad of this place it reaffirms we all grow, we all struggle to see things clearly. You feel as if you are deluding yourself into believing. But in truth you are learning to embrace all the big terrible things in you. You don't notice it happening. But it is.

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by Light Seeker

I have spent so long trying to rationalize the evil that folk do that it might possibly be detrimental to me personally.

I have tried to understand and see things from the view of the perpetrators of , and in no particular order.

The Romans
The Third Reich
Paedophiles
Rapists
Murderers
The self called Caliphate of Islamic State
The Hiroshima and Nagasaki atrocities
The Holocaust

and many , many more.. But I can't help feeling I am doing a dis service to myself in blindly accepting these realities as anything other than pure abomination of the most damnable order. I don't really know why I am asking you guys as I fully accept that the foulness of our deeds as "humanity" is something I myself personally need to reconcile.

Hello Light Seeker,

If "Objectivity is slowly but surely dumbing me right down.", then don't subject yourself to it. You have that choice.

The most efficacious reconciliation is and can only be within oneself.

One doesn't have to accept the condition of ignorance, or its conscious deliberate perversion (which is what evil is) -- for oneself.

It is true that ignorance is detrimental if one continues to identify with it (a universal condition), which is what you describe doing, and (imo) the cause of your consternation and frustration.

And while one may be able force, coerce or legislate a 'moral code' onto others represented by some 'system of justice' (which ends up being a somewhat arbitrary stop-gap, because also partially ignorant) - no one is able to force, coerce or legislate the real permanent (spiritual) solution, e.g., for others to become illumined. That is a waste of time, because the urge to do so can only come from within each individual (which in-turn may inspire by example, but again, not as an external mandate).

Meanwhile...a genuine spiritual aspiration or spiritual practice, which is not a waste of time, attempts to discern what constitutes that ignorance, in order to transform it - and that is what one needs to pay attention to: the transformation of ignorance, not the conditional manifestations of it.

The point of spirituality is that in and through it, reality becomes increasingly subjective - meaning 'internal identification' with higher principle (i.e., not simply, 'my opinion'). Each one contributes to the 'collective' accordingly, through a limited personal free-will. Therefore the collective social reality can be re-created in that manner. Yes, it is slow and subject to many regressions, but evidently this is the comprehensive way in which Nature works and evolves.

It is admirable to have empathy and compassion for those who are suffering, even for those who are perpetrating that suffering - and also normal to feel a disgust for the egregious perpetration of suffering onto innocent others. The fact that this is even felt and recognized means illumination of ignorance is taking place within - otherwise one couldn't feel it, the disparity and consequent revulsion.

But think about it for a moment...unless and until each individual transforms themselves - which can only be undertaken consciously and deliberately - everyone in their own ignorance is therefore contributing to that collective interactive pain, suffering, and dissatisfaction in various form and relative degree.

~ J