The elephant in the room.

[Pagandell]

Originally Posted by Kioma

I do! That's why I say I'm not there yet.

But I am also cognizant of the moral dilemma. Did I not lay it out quite clearly?

I am cognizant of many such moral dilemmas, balancing physical being, which is immediate and demanding, and spiritual consciousness, which is beyond time - which is why I say I was born before mine.

On my first post/ intro I said the main thing I was interested in was how two people can see a lump of raw dead flesh so differently I would have to look away and the thought of eating it would make me feel sick.

So how do you see a lump of raw dead flesh.

Are you familiar with the concept of hysteresis?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hysteresis

Basically, to my point, it says that there is a fundamental delay between a stimulus and it's response in a cognitive system - such as your mind.

However, it is not a linear response that can be given a number. It is not a direct correlation - it is not a simplistic response. For example, extreme stimulus can leave an indelible mark, such as seen in PTSD. On the other hand, many much smaller stimuli, reasoned away, will leave hardly any mark at all, such as captivity as seen in the Stockholm Syndrome.

What's my point? Only that there is no easy answer, no 'magic bullet' that answers all moral questions. But you can count on a few things...

One's early learning will generally influence an individual throughout life. There are exceptions - which only proves the rule.

I was born into a very poor family. If we didn't hunt, we didn't eat - and that's your answer. You obviously had a much different experience from me, somewhere - though again, intellectually, I see the dilemma. I am aware of both the argument for and against. It's not a matter of 'gut reaction' for me - it's just that I see both the visceral and the logical positions - and not something I just call 'logical' but actual logic, which highlights in stark terms the moral hypocrisy of eating meat.

But still I do, for reasons already given, and for which I always feel guilty.

[Pagandell]

I don't judge people , but i'm always interested in things.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Kioma

And you know, this is exactly why it's the 'Elephant in the room'.

I tell myself, 'It's okay, because I wouldn't survive if I didn't eat meat.'. Ghandi himself tried to be vegetarian, but had health problems, so had to face the moral dilemma of morality versus survival head on. He chose to live.

So what does this mean? Well, in my opinion, it means we, even at this iPhone, internet, budding space travel stage, are really barely above animals ourselves, and really still a part of their world.

But I maintain that eventually our technology will ultimately assist us, and allow us to survive without having to take life from any other organism.
….if we so choose.

Gandhi was a vegetarian and was close to becoming vegan for at least a time.

'....From a spiritual perspective also, Gandhiji considered flesh food, mixed diet and intoxicating drinks abhorrent, because they acted as deterrents to man’s inner purification and spiritual evolution............'

http://www.gandhifoundation.net/about%20gandhi5.htm

And you're right, we are barely above the animals and I would say to you that we are the same. All of us........feel. We feel love, joy, pain, fear and loss. Their different understanding of those emotions don't make them any less worthy of life, then my dog or my child.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Lucky 1

Baile....

So Baile....So you say that "deer season" is not spiritual??? All I can say is don't ridicule what you clearly don't understand.

Your deer season isn't spiritual. You take the life of a being that is closer to the earth than you despite what you tell yourself.

That deer eats the plants which come out of the earth....it is closer just logically speaking. You interrupt it's life by intruding. And if you want to talk about the circle of life, there is NOTHING more basic than the circle of plants and those that consume the plants. You are outside that most basic circle when you decide to kill that animal and take it away from that MOST BASIC CIRCLE OF LIFE.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Lucky 1

So Baile....So you say that "deer season" is not spiritual??? All I can say is don't ridicule what you clearly don't understand.

I sit in the back of my property and watch the animals feed on the seeds I put out. Birds, squirrels, porcupines, and deer. It's often exhilarating, thrilling in my soul, to observe these beautiful creatures. I sit 10 feet from the feed stump, the birds play with me and swoop down past my head. It is truly a spiritual happening.

When all is said and done, you don't kill animals because you need the food, like humans did 200 years ago. On the contrary, you could just drive your 4x4 to the grocery store and pick up a couple of steaks. In other words, there is no historical, natural or spiritual reason for you to kill animals. Hunting in the 21st century in North America is nothing other than an idle hobby, like playing hockey with the fellas in a Saturday beer league.

Bottom line then, there is only one reason for you to kill animals: because you like to kill animals. The soul thrill for you is in watching them drop dead, knowing you took their life. Knowing you are the dominant one, the winner. This is not a spiritual happening, this is your ego. I am not arguing with you. I am telling you this, just as I tell this to other people. People do this all the time: they mistakenly (or knowingly but will not admit) claim to be doing spiritual deeds, when it fact they are merely operating out of ego.

[Altair]

I agree hunting is mostly a hobby.. although I see its purpose in case of invasive species such as cats in Australia.. it then becomes a matter of preserving unique nature and ecosystems and sometimes it means getting rid of pests. In other cases, such as too many boar in some European regions we do better to improve the ecosystems by increasing natural habitat for predators (that belong here) such as wolves. They’re a whole lot better at preserving ecosystems and balance than we are..

And not hunting but buying steak in the store isn’t better of course..
So while I disagree with hobby hunting it’s still not as bad as commercial, intensive meat.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by Altair

And not hunting but buying steak in the store isn’t better of course..
So while I disagree with hobby hunting it’s still not as bad as commercial, intensive meat.

Sure. And that's like saying tossing paper garbage out the window of a moving car is better than pop cans, because paper will degrade quicker. Whereas next-level understanding is that both are littering, and are inappropriate expressions of lower-self behaviour.

[Baile]

St. Francis praised all creatures as brothers and sisters under God.

Furthermore, once the above is truly understood, it's like saying murder via a bullet to the head is more humane than torturing them first.

[smilingsun]

Originally Posted by Rah nam

We need to understand, on this planet there are 5 definite path, teachings, and every teaching can bring you to the next level of existence.
There are the Abrahamic religions, the original Indian teachings, Buddhism, Taoism, and all the native tribes around the world, (Australia, the Americas, Central Asia, an in the earlier times perhaps Europe and Britain)
In the last 100 years a crossing over between those spiritual path occurred, and not always to the benefit of the those who mix the practices. Very noticeably by those who flogged to India to soak up washed down teachings which where heavily infiltrated by the dark.

Do you mean buddhism and hinduism were infiltrated ? So which part of these teachings are true and which parts are not ?