Okay from a neo-pagans p.o.v. what do you think....

Animus... can I ask what country you are in. Are you British or from somewhere else?

You seem to write with authority of British Paganism but it is not in line with my own experience (and I run a forum for british pagans)

I do agree with you tho that the terms Pagan, Wiccan and Witch all refer to different types of people, one can be all of them or just one. Statements made to cover them all should be made very carefully as it is very difficult to generalise beyond most of them have noses in the middle of their faces. They can be very different people following very different paths.

Not wishing to speak for Norsey I think he was saying that he has socks older than Wicca and that Paganism is embedded in British culture. Paganism is as old as the hills, literally, Wicca is only about 60 years old.

This being the case there aren't going to be any "wiccan" covens that have lineage that go back very far.. but there are other covens that have a very long lineage.

I think the issue imho is that the US consider almost all pagans Wiccan whereas we see a very big difference as there are so many other types of pagans.

Have to say Norsey, you can keep your socks up north if it's ok by you ;o)

[norseman]

Tilia, I have no control over my socks. They are free agents

[ I think we might all do ourselves a favour if we use Witch Craft rather than witchcraft - makes it clearer what we are talking about ]

Tilia, I have no control over my socks. They are free agents

Well heres the thing.

From my experience, all wiccans that ive talked to (especialy outside of this forum, but still many here), assume that wicca is pagan. Technicaly it is, because it is anything other then monotheism, but pagan is more of a general term for anything around before christianity, or during its rise.

It goes the same thing that, people assume pagans are only witches, and vise versa, and that many, many, many wiccans think they are witches, and that the tradition goes far back as their civilization, which we know isnt true.

I think its more of the situation of people just not understanding what they say they are, which again, im sure we can all agree happens particularly with wicca/paganism.

Yes england has pretty much always been a pagan country, but it still had different types of pagan tradtions over time: celt/druid, nothern eurpean, some norse influence, roman..... to condence most of these, and call it one belif structure (wicca), still deosnt even give these traditions justice, becasue almsot everything we know about them, is gone, except by the very few people who keep it int he family, ie "British traditional Wicca".

Im sure some english people went to the states, and other countries, with this knowledge and started to spread it around, and we end up with the american version of it.

Does it mean one is wrong or right? No, its no different from what happened with monotheism, branching of into almsot thousands of traditions, which are generaly the same

Originally Posted by Time

Yes england has pretty much always been a pagan country, but it still had different types of pagan tradtions over time: celt/druid, nothern eurpean, some norse influence, roman..... to condence most of these, and call it one belif structure (wicca),

Why can't we bundle it together and call it Pagan? Honestly, I am NOT wiccan, I'm really not... but I AM pagan. Would you use your umbrella term of wiccan for a Heathen? I can assure you I know of at least one that would have an issue with that. Likewise I know of a few Druids that would have the same problem.

Wicca is one of the many pagan paths. It is a valid and respected path, but it is not a name that can be applied to all pagans.

I cant tell you what to do or not, all I can say is that wiccan and pagan are genearaly speaking of the same thing, as in wicca is pagan in the fact it isnt monotheism.

But pagan is a general term. Its like, i can call you a christian, but what kind? presbateryan? Evangelical? Protestant?

"Pagan" is a general term to descrive thousands of traditions, greek, celt, germanic ( as in bavaria/germany area, not germanic as the general term), roman, gaulic, gailic, and even east indian tranditions in all forms and eastern traditions, all north american and south american traditions.... You cant say they are all the same thing, because they arent, they are just in one group of traditions givin the general term "pagan"

The thing is we DO bundle it together and call it pagan, but it really doesnt describe much for the tradition of paganism were trying to discuss at any point. Its like " oh lets talk about cars"... " ok what kind", " oh it doesnt matter, all vehicles are the same"......

Originally Posted by Time

I cant tell you what to do or not, all I can say is that wiccan and pagan are genearaly speaking of the same thing, as in wicca is pagan in the fact it isnt monotheism.

But pagan is a general term. Its like, i can call you a christian, but what kind? presbateryan? Evangelical? Protestant?

But I am not a specific type of pagan. I'm not Druid, I'm not Wiccan (i.e. follow a initiatory path), I'm not Heathen.. I am a solitary eclectic pagan, I have taken on aspects of a number of spiritualities. I was given the label of pagan lightworker as that is the 2 aspects of my path, but I do not fit into any easily definable, recognised group.

"Pagan" is a general term to descrive thousands of traditions, greek, celt, germanic ( as in bavaria/germany area, not germanic as the general term), roman, gaulic, gailic, and even east indian tranditions in all forms and eastern traditions, all north american and south american traditions.... You cant say they are all the same thing, because they arent, they are just in one group of traditions givin the general term "pagan"

The thing is we DO bundle it together and call it pagan, but it really doesnt describe much for the tradition of paganism were trying to discuss at any point. Its like " oh lets talk about cars"... " ok what kind", " oh it doesnt matter, all vehicles are the same"......

Wiccan may be an umbrella term in Canada, but it isn't here in the UK (and we were talking about the UK a few posts up). If people are happy to be called wiccan in Canada that is cool :)

As for using the term pagan, as I posted in a different thread (but can't find it) what a word actually means is less important than what the majority thinks it means. As such, in the UK at least, the majority of people think the word Pagan means a nature based spirituality often based around the cycle of the year and a duality of God and Goddess (However the Heathens come under this heading too and their path is a bit different)... very very few would consider something like hinduism pagan even if technically it is because it is non-Abrahamic.

I think we will just have to agree that different countries use different names for things... but it would be good if we only made sweeping generalisations about our own countries

[norseman]

Time, it's two/three nations divided by a common language again. Pagan is a catch-all word. Wicca is a religion within that catch-all. All Gardnerian wiccans are classed as witches but not all witches are wiccan.
BTW is British Traditional Witchcraft, not BTWicca. Actually, it is British Traditional Craft as used by witches
Ah, it's only words that trip us up !

Just the word pagan. LOL for some people.