Ask A Vegan

[SpiritofZoe]

Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight

I agree that too much meat isn't healthy, but it's just another case of making a mountain out of a molehill. We humans are and WILL always be omnivores, nature designed us that way wether you like it or not. Humans have much shorter digestive systems than herbivores and don’t have the specialized organs to digest cellulose, the main fiber in plants. We've been eating meat for thousands of years, and blaming every new illness and health problems on eating meat makes no sense. Meat doesn’t raise your risk of cardiovascular disease or diabetes, the main reason for those false claims is that meat just happens to be high in saturated fat. And there are plenty of people who live 'healthy' as vegans but nonetheless catch some nasty illness or even get cancer anyway.



As I said, the consumption of meat has been happening since the dawn of civilisation so I have my doubts it will ever disappear. It's the same thing with smoking which is getting more and more boycotted while there are many people who will always keep smoking no matter under what circumstances. We simply won't accept any changes forcefully shoven down our throats by PETA hippies and grass eaters who think they can decide for us what we should and shouldn't eat.



What in the...??? Comparing those two things are just plain stupid... Kicking a dog downstairs for no reason is animal cruelty and not to mention, unnecessary while killing an animal (in a HUMANE way) for food at least serves a purpose... Tell me, can you not see the difference between the two or do you simply not WANT to see the difference because it's not right up your alley? I personally think it's the latter.

Overall I agree with your points, and truly respect voicing them in such a dialogue that is so important at this time. However I think you overestimate the importance of 'always' being omnivores and not having the digestive system. Those things can change in a few generations and I believe it's inevitable that they will, because humanity has been in a very very long period of darkness controlled by Dark rulers and the necessity of eating meat is very much related to that (that's from my own research which I won't go into here but it is relevant).

Our species digestive systems could change very quickly- they do in other ways, in a matter of a few generations. Already in some cultures if people eat beans from a young age then they have the ability to digest the oligosaccharides better than those who don't get beans.
Essentially we do not all have access to healthy crops of plant based foods because of the Dark rulership of corporate government- this may sound far fetched to you but it is absolutely the case. I'm not going to defend that here because it's too complicated but it is very well-established truth and very relevant to our diets. Livestock has been a more accessible alternative, like a necessary evil, for eons precisely because of politics and the powers-that-be that prevent our access to ample plant-based foods, and who have taken control of industrial agriculture globally, for this purpose.

Then there is the matter of cruelty and some poeple feel ANY killing and eating of animals is cruelty; they have a right to that perspective; it's not just opinion, there is some obvious truth in it regardless of where one stands. I think at the very least the importance of 'humanely" killing livestock is huge, it says a lot about who we are as a species. ANd the fact remains that the dairy and meat and eggs industries are still predominantly inhumane and cruel practices, unregulated as far as the animal treatment, even extreme cruelty to the animals is still often overlooked and whistleblowers are retaliated against.

These industries really are still fraught with such practices all over the world. It would be a huge step in our evolution if this could improve radically, and I believe it would if the barriers to such improvements were removed. Personally I feel this ought to be #1 priority before trying to sell vegan diets to the masses. A civilization that had zero tolerance for cruelty in these industries would be a HUGE step in the right direction.

[Debrah]

You make some interesting points SpiritofZoe and it reminded me of a page I found recently that said that there is proof that some of the Neanderthal people were not consumers of any meat products. Analysis of the bacteria on their teeth is proof of that. I believe the area that was mentioned was from what we now call Spain.

Interestingly too, the analysis showed that he may have used a precursor to our modern day penicillin and salicylic acid (aspirin) which according to the researchers at the Adelaide University, suggests that those who we once thought of as extremely primitive, actually had a very good understanding of medicinal plants.

The thing you focused on in much of your comment was the cruelty aspect of modern day farming and that was my initial motivating factor in making the change I did to my routines. I think the current efforts to 'grow' meat without having to make use of living, feeling animals will be the help to a major shift in how we access protein going forward. It will not only make cruelty a thing of the past in that event, but it will also mitigate HUGELY, the impact that meat production has on a planet that is home to 9 billion people and with finite land and resources.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/sc...-a7619081.html

[Dargor]

Originally Posted by SpiritofZoe

Overall I agree with your points, and truly respect voicing them in such a dialogue that is so important at this time. However I think you overestimate the importance of 'always' being omnivores and not having the digestive system. Those things can change in a few generations and I believe it's inevitable that they will, because humanity has been in a very very long period of darkness controlled by Dark rulers and the necessity of eating meat is very much related to that (that's from my own research which I won't go into here but it is relevant).

Our species digestive systems could change very quickly- they do in other ways, in a matter of a few generations. Already in some cultures if people eat beans from a young age then they have the ability to digest the oligosaccharides better than those who don't get beans.
Essentially we do not all have access to healthy crops of plant based foods because of the Dark rulership of corporate government- this may sound far fetched to you but it is absolutely the case. I'm not going to defend that here because it's too complicated but it is very well-established truth and very relevant to our diets. Livestock has been a more accessible alternative, like a necessary evil, for eons precisely because of politics and the powers-that-be that prevent our access to ample plant-based foods, and who have taken control of industrial agriculture globally, for this purpose.

But that doesn't take away the fact that there are lots of people who just prefer meat, or even both. Everyone has their own personal taste in what they like and don't like. There are those who go with the flock but also those who resist change, like me, who will keep on eating meat. Just because you (not specifically you) don't like meat, doesn't give you the right to force other people to stop eating it and dictate their lifestyle. Livestock isn't a ''necessary evil'', it's our god-given right to eat what we want. So what if livestock becomes unncessesary? As long there are people who like meat there is still a reason for it to go on, and that's why I don't think in several eons we've all converted to vegans.

Then there is the matter of cruelty and some poeple feel ANY killing and eating of animals is cruelty; they have a right to that perspective; it's not just opinion, there is some obvious truth in it regardless of where one stands. I think at the very least the importance of 'humanely" killing livestock is huge, it says a lot about who we are as a species. ANd the fact remains that the dairy and meat and eggs industries are still predominantly inhumane and cruel practices, unregulated as far as the animal treatment, even extreme cruelty to the animals is still often overlooked and whistleblowers are retaliated against.

These industries really are still fraught with such practices all over the world. It would be a huge step in our evolution if this could improve radically, and I believe it would if the barriers to such improvements were removed. Personally I feel this ought to be #1 priority before trying to sell vegan diets to the masses. A civilization that had zero tolerance for cruelty in these industries would be a HUGE step in the right direction

Some people just need to toughen up and stop being crybabies. If they want to ban meat eating then we might as well stop all other animals from eating other animals then because we humans are technically also animals, no? I'm pretty sure those same grass eating PETA hippies enjoy watching a pride of lions eating a baby elephant alive on tv with a bowl of popcorn in their hands and be all like: ''ohh, its cruel but it's the circle of life'' but when a human does the killing then all of a sudden it's animal cruelty and no longer circle of life. lol, people can be so weird... Don't get me wrong, I do agree that inhumane practices of livestock killing needs to make place for more humane methods, but that's pretty much it. Other than that I don't see a reason for it to stop, as long it doesn't involve actual animal cruelty.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by SlayerOfLight

I agree that too much meat isn't healthy, but it's just another case of making a mountain out of a molehill. We humans are and WILL always be omnivores, nature designed us that way wether you like it or not. Humans have much shorter digestive systems than herbivores and don’t have the specialized organs to digest cellulose, the main fiber in plants. We've been eating meat for thousands of years, and blaming every new illness and health problems on eating meat makes no sense. Meat doesn’t raise your risk of cardiovascular disease or diabetes, the main reason for those false claims is that meat just happens to be high in saturated fat. And there are plenty of people who live 'healthy' as vegans but nonetheless catch some nasty illness or even get cancer anyway.



As I said, the consumption of meat has been happening since the dawn of civilisation so I have my doubts it will ever disappear. It's the same thing with smoking which is getting more and more boycotted while there are many people who will always keep smoking no matter under what circumstances. We simply won't accept any changes forcefully shoven down our throats by PETA hippies and grass eaters who think they can decide for us what we should and shouldn't eat.



What in the...??? Comparing those two things are just plain stupid... Kicking a dog downstairs for no reason is animal cruelty and not to mention, unnecessary while killing an animal (in a HUMANE way) for food at least serves a purpose... Tell me, can you not see the difference between the two or do you simply not WANT to see the difference because it's not right up your alley? I personally think it's the latter.

The mountain, in my opinion, is that we humans MUST EAT MEAT TO OBTAIN PROTEIN. Protein is present in plant foods, otherwise elephants and whale sharks and cattle could not get to the size they do.

Rather than debate point by point with you on our physiology (carnivore/omnivore/herbivore) I would hope that you would listen to a real expert, Dr. Sofia Oacha, discussing the differences in this very informative video. Only 10 minutes long, she touches on all the points that show us to be more closely resembling herbivores than omnivores and how it is important to nourish ourselves according to our biology, rather than traditional behaviour. (Do you have that kind of courage?)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4NsMiOMmCY

One thing she doesn’t touch on is why we don’t need to digest cellulose and that’s because the cellulose in our diets, assists in moving food through our digestive system with a view to protecting the walls from damage (cancer). http://science.jrank.org/pages/1335/...digestion.html

From the link:

‘…Although cellulose is indigestible by humans, it does form a part of the human diet in the form of plant foods. Small amounts of cellulose found in vegetables and fruits pass through the human digestive system intact. Cellulose is part of the material called "fiber" that dieticians and nutritionists have identified as useful in moving food through the digestive tract quickly and efficiently. Diets high in fiber are thought to lower the risk of colon cancer because fiber reduces the time that waste products stay in contact with the walls of the colon (the terminal part of the digestive tract).’

Justifying cruelty for any reason, including food, and particularly in light of your rather weak arguments, is a very strange ‘hook to hang your hat on’. It’s fairly obvious without straining my brain, to see why you do that.

[Debrah]

'To draw a bow and loose an arrow at game is a feeling of aliveness that a non hunter cannot know'



Maybe the thrill is in simply appreciating that you (aren't the victim) in that moment.

True appreciation of 'aliveness' is mothers giving birth to the next generation. The comparison is striking, bringing life as opposed to bringing death. And by turning away from eating meat, a non-meat eater is closer to the ultimate 'aliveness' of bringing life, than any killer can ever be. Out of mercy comes the bestowing of continued life.

[Lucky 1]

Debrah......the vast majority of the people on this planet eat meat and always will.

I for one am doing my part to raise the next generation of hunters and outdoorsman because to me it's important to do so.

Frankly...you and I are so far apart in our views its pointless to continue here.....your not moving in my direction thought wise and i'm not moving in yours.....this is after the vegan forum and I find nothing here spiritually or rhetorically that moves me to change my views.

I doubt I'll be back. .......

[Tobi]

It might be best if those who advocate meat eating and are happier on a meat diet leave the vegan forum alone. The arguments between meat eaters and vegans/vegetarians, although interesting, always result in some bad feeling and endless arguing.

I stopped eating meat, only because my consciousness drastically shifted after some intensely personal experiences I had with the Souls of animals.
Prior to that I very much doubt if any vegan could have changed my mind about my omnivore diet, no matter what they had said, because I felt good and strong on my diet and had no wish to change it.
Of course, others have not had those same personal experiences. They have their own personal experiences which are valuable on their journey.

But....if there is a forum section which really doesn't appeal to some members, because of the incompatibility of beliefs, maybe it's best not to visit those sections and not to engage in argument.

[LPC]

It seems to me that Tobi has made an important point. For example, in the religions section of the forum, admins had to step in to avoid a certain religion being frequently criticised, because it was upsetting to the believers of that religion and caused endless arguments. In the same way, it would seem pointless for those who reject (for example) astral projection, hypnosis, astrology, mediumship, UFOs, etc. to criticise those who gather in such sections of the forum.

This is the vegetarian and vegan section of the forum, where people who are interested in such a topic gather. If some members of the forum don't agree with vegetarianism or veganism, fine - just go somewhere else on the forum to discuss something which does appeal to you. That is the positive way forward, IMHO.

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Lucky 1

Debrah......the vast majority of the people on this planet eat meat and always will.

I for one am doing my part to raise the next generation of hunters and outdoorsman because to me it's important to do so.

Frankly...you and I are so far apart in our views its pointless to continue here.....your not moving in my direction thought wise and i'm not moving in yours.....this is after the vegan forum and I find nothing here spiritually or rhetorically that moves me to change my views.

I doubt I'll be back. .......

Of course I'm not moving in your direction because your direction is all about death and abuse. My focus is on life and compassion, respect and peace. You're right, we are light years apart.

In the future, for people who simply cannot put their habits and cravings aside, but want to be compassionate and kind in their diets, this is where meat will come from:

http://www.mercyforanimals.org/histo...hout-slaughter

[Debrah]

Originally Posted by Tobi

It might be best if those who advocate meat eating and are happier on a meat diet leave the vegan forum alone. The arguments between meat eaters and vegans/vegetarians, although interesting, always result in some bad feeling and endless arguing.

I stopped eating meat, only because my consciousness drastically shifted after some intensely personal experiences I had with the Souls of animals.
Prior to that I very much doubt if any vegan could have changed my mind about my omnivore diet, no matter what they had said, because I felt good and strong on my diet and had no wish to change it.
Of course, others have not had those same personal experiences. They have their own personal experiences which are valuable on their journey.

But....if there is a forum section which really doesn't appeal to some members, because of the incompatibility of beliefs, maybe it's best not to visit those sections and not to engage in argument.

I think for some people who are spiritually evolved to where they are at that point yes, talking to a vegan can help them understand what is at stake and what is really involved in the choices we make. The info that I might provide in that kind of discussion is part of their journey just as their opposition is part of mine. Of course, it always depends on how the information is shared and how open the hearer is to hearing the other side. But even if they aren't quite at that point yet, it is entirely possible that a seed gets planted. Personally, I don't mind talking to folks and sharing the information that I've learned over the past ten years.

Everybody arrives at the same destination in the end, but how we get there is as varied as the number of people on the planet.