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  #1  
Old 29-06-2018, 06:38 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Actualising Buddhism

As the regular participants on this section know, I'm not particularly big on the interpretation of Buddhist texts because learning the philosophy isn't essential to spiritual purification. Basically I'm concerned more with the essentials than I am with any particular sectarian narrative.



I am fond of the Buddhist texts personally, but I don't present them as the truth or use them to validate my own positions or to undermine the positions of others. I have done remedial study of the philosophy as it pertains to meditation practice, so I might refer to some teachings which elucidate meditation, but generally I won't bother apart from suggesting that interested parties google them themselves.



The key to this discourse is to listen with understanding, which has been written about by monks such as Thich Nhat Hahn should anyone care to look that up. This only means when you listen to me you endeavour to understand what I mean rather than assess if I'm right or wrong. It just means there is more than one perspective and all perspectives have room to be broader and deeper.



The facet of understanding is expansive and not something that comes to conclusion, and the facet of wisdom is ever deepening and growing more nuanced, and never complete as knowledge.
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Old 30-06-2018, 04:59 AM
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I'll continue because there are things to be said which wouldn't suit any current thread in this section.


I have to start with the practical aspect because the philosophy of Buddhism is reliant on personal insight, and not on intellectual interpretations.


The breath meditation called anapanasati, which only involves being consciously aware of the sensation of breathing, is the most common place to start practicing Buddhist meditation, and I suggest feeling the breath for say 10 seconds or so every time you come to this thread to help create a meditative space.


I should start talking from that point and go more deeply into it from there, as far as my own lived experience enables me to. The philosophy which is pertinent is also fascinating.
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Old 01-07-2018, 04:39 AM
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I hope you take the time to tune in to a few breaths and know what breathing feels like.
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Old 01-07-2018, 06:55 AM
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Do you think there are people who have actualized Buddhism who have no religious or "spiritual" conditioning?

For example, say a nurse who has dedicated her life to helping the sick and dying, full of compassion and who is always in the moment, always peaceful and kind, selfless, at ease and without conflict in every situation. Do you believe there are people who have actualized (are living - have attained) what Buddha or Buddhism pointed to or taught who have zero "spiritual" interests?

A lot of people on the Buddhist forums here seem to have their own spiritual thing they are into, but can a person who is into nothing "spiritual" have actualized or be living Buddhism?
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Old 01-07-2018, 10:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
Do you think there are people who have actualized Buddhism who have no religious or "spiritual" conditioning?

For example, say a nurse who has dedicated her life to helping the sick and dying, full of compassion and who is always in the moment, always peaceful and kind, selfless, at ease and without conflict in every situation. Do you believe there are people who have actualized (are living - have attained) what Buddha or Buddhism pointed to or taught who have zero "spiritual" interests?

A lot of people on the Buddhist forums here seem to have their own spiritual thing they are into, but can a person who is into nothing "spiritual" have actualized or be living Buddhism?




Well, personal religious preferences, and/or the degree of kindness a person expresses aren't relevant to breathing, and 'Actualising' only points to the truth of this moment of awareness, which applies to anyone spiritual or otherwise. I suggest noticing the experience of breathing because it is a typical Buddhist meditation which brings attention to the momentary experience.


No one has to believe anything or have any opinion because we can simply feel it and know it directly. If people try feeling that breath sensation for maybe 5 breaths, they will also notice the affect such momentary attention has on the mind.
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
Do you think there are people who have actualized Buddhism who have no religious or "spiritual" conditioning?

For example, say a nurse who has dedicated her life to helping the sick and dying, full of compassion and who is always in the moment, always peaceful and kind, selfless, at ease and without conflict in every situation. Do you believe there are people who have actualized (are living - have attained) what Buddha or Buddhism pointed to or taught who have zero "spiritual" interests?

A lot of people on the Buddhist forums here seem to have their own spiritual thing they are into, but can a person who is into nothing "spiritual" have actualized or be living Buddhism?



What do you mean by ' living Buddhism ' ?
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Old 01-07-2018, 11:05 AM
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oops sorry I thought it was my post
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Old 01-07-2018, 07:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Well, personal religious preferences, and/or the degree of kindness a person expresses aren't relevant to breathing, and 'Actualising' only points to the truth of this moment of awareness, which applies to anyone spiritual or otherwise. I suggest noticing the experience of breathing because it is a typical Buddhist meditation which brings attention to the momentary experience.

No one has to believe anything or have any opinion because we can simply feel it and know it directly. If people try feeling that breath sensation for maybe 5 breaths, they will also notice the affect such momentary attention has on the mind.

I understand how breathing techniques can interrupt a thought identified process, after all, if one is focused on the breath, especially when this shift in attention is linked to spiritual philosophies and concepts, it will not only take the attention off of thought and onto a usually unconscious physical process, it will remind one or make one aware of their state of attention, of where their attention is or was. So one can use it repeatably to "wake up" or become more aware in the moment. I myself am not drawn to this method or practice or technique.

So doing that can lead to some space between me and some habitual reactionary thought. At times, there is no space between me and my thoughts. I become aware of the thought is the sense of knowing it is there and whatever it is proclaiming is "truth" to me, there is no space or distance between me and thought there. For example, I am sitting at home and my internet goes down, or the power goes out one day, and the thought comes, "I'm bored." I immediately feel this "thought" as my brain cooperates with it by producing the necessary chemicals and their corresponding emotions so that I physically feel this thought. One feels one is suffering from this "boredom" in some way and wants to escape this unpleasant "feeling."

Another example, I am peacefully driving down the freeway and somebody in the lane next to me doesn't notice I am there and moves into my lane in front of me inches from my bumper. I immediately hit my brakes and the thought comes, "OMG WHAT A &&*^%$$#" and once again my brain cooperates with this thought by producing chemicals so that I feel the strong emotion of anger.

If I was detached from my thinking, in both of these examples, I would not react to the thought, my brain would not produce the emotion causing chemicals, and I would not feel those emotions. There may be the feeling of the rush of adrenaline in the car example as that is an automatic body response to sudden danger, but there would be no anger.

So let's imagine two persons in these examples. One is a normal everyday person so the thought comes, "I feel bored" and they feel this subtle sense of suffering. The next person is practicing being self aware in the moment due to Buddhism or Zen or Ram Dass or Tolle or whatever, and so they question the reality of the thought, they don't identify with it, so no "feeling" of boredom is there. They recognize the unreality of the thought. Same deal with the car example.

My question is, can a person exist who naturally ignores or does not identify with thoughts like these? A person with zero religious or spiritual conditioning?

So that they are living Buddhism while having no knowledge of it? See actually we have this question backwards. They are not living Buddhism, Buddhism is pointing to this outside already existing thing. Buddha discovered something in himself that was always available. It was a potential he had before he realized it. He did not invent something, he discovered something that was there. So he taught it in his way and it ended up being called or associated with him or "Buddhism." But it is not owned by Buddha or Buddhism. It is a potential everyone has. Everyone can observe themselves and learn things. Learn to live in ways that make us suffer less. Live in ways where we are not in conflict with ourselves and others. Everyone can learn to not identify so much with habitual automatic thinking.

Learning this stuff is not only Buddhist. The "stuff" is not Buddhist. That just one organization that talks about this stuff. Tolle talks about the same stuff, the 12 step programs talk about it, Jesus talked about it, thousands of "paths" talk about these subjects in varying degrees and ways, people can also find it on their own or be "built" in such a way they do it naturally.

My premise in this question is there are people who are "enlightened" to various degrees with zero spiritual or religious affiliation. This stuff is not "owned" by religion. One does not have to be religious or affiliated with any path to walk in a forest in inner silence detached from their thoughts. It comes natural to some people.

One could argue they spent a lot of past lives studying Buddhism or something to get to the point this is what they exist as in an incarnation, but here again, this is backwards. It assumes the self realization came from Buddhism. That Buddhism is required for one to learn such things. Buddhism did not exist when Buddha found this thing. He found it naturally perhaps, lol I don't know as he did have knowledge of the early Vedas. Maybe that early Hinduism is what led him to enlightenment. Directed his self inquiry.

I would assume that how "spiritual" a person is in a human body is on a scale of sorts. Lets say 1 is not spiritual at all, and 1000 is very spiritual. Lets say the majority of humans are somewhere in the middle, from like 400 to 600. Lets say some are pushing the high 700's. Well these groups of people exist in religion and out of religion. One high 700 may be a Buddhist, another may be a Christian, another may not be in a religion. Very low people exist in all groups as well as history shows. Paths are just there, it's up to individuals what they make out of them.

This thread title is "Actualizing Buddhism" which means making it a living actual experience. Experience is not Buddhist, or Christian, or any "thing," it only becomes a thing when we describe it conceptually, with thought.

Thought can take control of experience and own it, color it, filter it, but it can exist with or without thought being a part of it. So really, actualized Buddhism ceases to be Buddhist. Actualized Buddhism is an experience, freedom from the conceptual, and Buddhism is a concept pointing to an experience.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
I understand how breathing techniques can interrupt a thought identified process, after all, if one is focused on the breath, especially when this shift in attention is linked to spiritual philosophies and concepts, it will not only take the attention off of thought and onto a usually unconscious physical process, it will remind one or make one aware of their state of attention, of where their attention is or was. So one can use it repeatably to "wake up" or become more aware in the moment. I myself am not drawn to this method or practice or technique.

So doing that can lead to some space between me and some habitual reactionary thought. At times, there is no space between me and my thoughts. I become aware of the thought is the sense of knowing it is there and whatever it is proclaiming is "truth" to me, there is no space or distance between me and thought there. For example, I am sitting at home and my internet goes down, or the power goes out one day, and the thought comes, "I'm bored." I immediately feel this "thought" as my brain cooperates with it by producing the necessary chemicals and their corresponding emotions so that I physically feel this thought. One feels one is suffering from this "boredom" in some way and wants to escape this unpleasant "feeling."

Another example, I am peacefully driving down the freeway and somebody in the lane next to me doesn't notice I am there and moves into my lane in front of me inches from my bumper. I immediately hit my brakes and the thought comes, "OMG WHAT A &&*^%$$#" and once again my brain cooperates with this thought by producing chemicals so that I feel the strong emotion of anger.

If I was detached from my thinking, in both of these examples, I would not react to the thought, my brain would not produce the emotion causing chemicals, and I would not feel those emotions. There may be the feeling of the rush of adrenaline in the car example as that is an automatic body response to sudden danger, but there would be no anger.

So let's imagine two persons in these examples. One is a normal everyday person so the thought comes, "I feel bored" and they feel this subtle sense of suffering. The next person is practicing being self aware in the moment due to Buddhism or Zen or Ram Dass or Tolle or whatever, and so they question the reality of the thought, they don't identify with it, so no "feeling" of boredom is there. They recognize the unreality of the thought. Same deal with the car example.

My question is, can a person exist who naturally ignores or does not identify with thoughts like these? A person with zero religious or spiritual conditioning?

So that they are living Buddhism while having no knowledge of it? See actually we have this question backwards. They are not living Buddhism, Buddhism is pointing to this outside already existing thing. Buddha discovered something in himself that was always available. It was a potential he had before he realized it. He did not invent something, he discovered something that was there. So he taught it in his way and it ended up being called or associated with him or "Buddhism." But it is not owned by Buddha or Buddhism. It is a potential everyone has. Everyone can observe themselves and learn things. Learn to live in ways that make us suffer less. Live in ways where we are not in conflict with ourselves and others. Everyone can learn to not identify so much with habitual automatic thinking.

Learning this stuff is not only Buddhist. The "stuff" is not Buddhist. That just one organization that talks about this stuff. Tolle talks about the same stuff, the 12 step programs talk about it, Jesus talked about it, thousands of "paths" talk about these subjects in varying degrees and ways, people can also find it on their own or be "built" in such a way they do it naturally.

My premise in this question is there are people who are "enlightened" to various degrees with zero spiritual or religious affiliation. This stuff is not "owned" by religion. One does not have to be religious or affiliated with any path to walk in a forest in inner silence detached from their thoughts. It comes natural to some people.

One could argue they spent a lot of past lives studying Buddhism or something to get to the point this is what they exist as in an incarnation, but here again, this is backwards. It assumes the self realization came from Buddhism. That Buddhism is required for one to learn such things. Buddhism did not exist when Buddha found this thing. He found it naturally perhaps, lol I don't know as he did have knowledge of the early Vedas. Maybe that early Hinduism is what led him to enlightenment. Directed his self inquiry.

I would assume that how "spiritual" a person is in a human body is on a scale of sorts. Lets say 1 is not spiritual at all, and 1000 is very spiritual. Lets say the majority of humans are somewhere in the middle, from like 400 to 600. Lets say some are pushing the high 700's. Well these groups of people exist in religion and out of religion. One high 700 may be a Buddhist, another may be a Christian, another may not be in a religion. Very low people exist in all groups as well as history shows. Paths are just there, it's up to individuals what they make out of them.

This thread title is "Actualizing Buddhism" which means making it a living actual experience. Experience is not Buddhist, or Christian, or any "thing," it only becomes a thing when we describe it conceptually, with thought.

Thought can take control of experience and own it, color it, filter it, but it can exist with or without thought being a part of it. So really, actualized Buddhism ceases to be Buddhist. Actualized Buddhism is an experience, freedom from the conceptual, and Buddhism is a concept pointing to an experience.





' But it is not owned by Buddha or Buddhism '


No of course it's not owned by Buddha or Buddhism, there are many different paths.
Buddha himself said,
' It is not proper for a wise man who preserves truth to come to the definite conclusion: ‘Only this is true, anything else is wrong.’


He's also known for having taught other people's Doctrines, in one of the Suttas, he taught a Brahmin the practice that leads to meeting the Brahma. I can't remember which Sutta but he definitely never his way is the only way... from what I have studied.
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Old 02-07-2018, 04:18 AM
Gem Gem is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rain95
I understand how breathing techniques can interrupt a thought identified process, after all, if one is focused on the breath, especially when this shift in attention is linked to spiritual philosophies and concepts, it will not only take the attention off of thought and onto a usually unconscious physical process, it will remind one or make one aware of their state of attention, of where their attention is or was. So one can use it repeatably to "wake up" or become more aware in the moment. I myself am not drawn to this method or practice or technique.


Personally, I wouldn't be so concerned with Buddhist philosophy and instead be primarily concerned with the real-lived practice. If people do take a bit of time to feel their breathing sensation, the affect on the mind is also felt. The incessant thoughts have to subside somewhat when the attention turns to what is actually happening in the moment, and since the breathing sensation is momentary, knowing what it is like is a facet of momentary awareness.


Quote:
So doing that can lead to some space between me and some habitual reactionary thought.


Yes, if one can notice spaces between thoughts, that's showing an existent awareness without thought, but if not, then OK, that's the truth of the experience as it is experienced by them. Since the meditation is in the truth as it is, it stays in the truth of the direct experience just as it happens to be.



Quote:
At times, there is no space between me and my thoughts. I become aware of the thought is the sense of knowing it is there and whatever it is proclaiming is "truth" to me, there is no space or distance between me and thought there. For example, I am sitting at home and my internet goes down, or the power goes out one day, and the thought comes, "I'm bored." I immediately feel this "thought" as my brain cooperates with it by producing the necessary chemicals and their corresponding emotions so that I physically feel this thought. One feels one is suffering from this "boredom" in some way and wants to escape this unpleasant "feeling."


Precisely. In such a case, when these sorts of agitations arise, you can recognise that strong desire arising from the feeling in the body, an aversion toward current circumstance coupled with the craving for something 'entertaining'. In the breath meditation one 'just watches' and before long the mind starts to rebel and kick up all sorts of nonsense because it isn't accustomed to doing nothing. It is conditioned habitually pursue pleasure sensation and run away from discomfort, and this the basic way in suffering is self-generated (or self-generating). All the experience is sensory. Sound comes, sight comes and so forth, all to play out through the nervous system (which is the felt sensation system). All the disparate senses unify in the 'feeling', and from feeling 'craving' arises.


I am specific about breath meditation as 'knowing what it feel like'. Not 'observe breath' because people think their imagined concept 'I am breathing' is direct, but it isn't, whereas actually being aware of the sensation is a direct connection - you actually know what it feels like. Hence the breath meditation is actually a felt sensation meditation, and the reaction to feeling, that craving mixed with aversion, is the nexus of self generated suffering. If one goes deep;y into the real and felt, they will see how easily they are mentally disturbed by their own reactivity.


Hence I can't talk about the breath without also talking about the sensation and the reactions of the mind, as all these are interwoven by the unification of all senses in the manifestation of feeling.


But I suggest being unconcerned with all that complexity, and simply know the way the breath feels as it comes in and as it goes out.


Quote:
Another example, I am peacefully driving down the freeway and somebody in the lane next to me doesn't notice I am there and moves into my lane in front of me inches from my bumper. I immediately hit my brakes and the thought comes, "OMG WHAT A &&*^%$$#" and once again my brain cooperates with this thought by producing chemicals so that I feel the strong emotion of anger.


Anger is tricky because it rises very fast and explosively overwhelms ones sensibility, but it can be felt in the rhythm of the breath and other tensions of the body. Everyone knows taking a few breaths helps the anger subside, as the emotion and the breath are directly connected at the level of felt sensation.


Quote:
If I was detached from my thinking, in both of these examples, I would not react to the thought, my brain would not produce the emotion causing chemicals, and I would not feel those emotions. There may be the feeling of the rush of adrenaline in the car example as that is an automatic body response to sudden danger, but there would be no anger.


Indeed, the sense of immediate danger will prepare the body for flight or fight, and the breath will alter as part of all that, and the head will feel tight and tense as the brain fires like a son of a gun, all just occuring in the sensation, but the strong emotion is a secondary reaction to all these extreme sensations which are felt quite strongly through the body.


Quote:
So let's imagine two persons in these examples. One is a normal everyday person so the thought comes, "I feel bored" and they feel this subtle sense of suffering. The next person is practicing being self aware in the moment due to Buddhism or Zen or Ram Dass or Tolle or whatever, and so they question the reality of the thought, they don't identify with it, so no "feeling" of boredom is there. They recognize the unreality of the thought. Same deal with the car example.


Exactly, we can recognise the reaction for what it is, entirely habitual fabrication of the mind that really has nothing to do with the real lived experience.


Quote:
My question is, can a person exist who naturally ignores or does not identify with thoughts like these? A person with zero religious or spiritual conditioning?


Yes, of course.


Quote:
So that they are living Buddhism while having no knowledge of it?


Yes, because it isn't knowledge in the sense of the learned. It is knowing in the sense of insight into the direct perception.



Quote:
See actually we have this question backwards. They are not living Buddhism, Buddhism is pointing to this outside already existing thing. Buddha discovered something in himself that was always available. It was a potential he had before he realized it. He did not invent something, he discovered something that was there.


Exactly.


Quote:
So he taught it in his way and it ended up being called or associated with him or "Buddhism." But it is not owned by Buddha or Buddhism. It is a potential everyone has. Everyone can observe themselves and learn things. Learn to live in ways that make us suffer less. Live in ways where we are not in conflict with ourselves and others. Everyone can learn to not identify so much with habitual automatic thinking.


Yes, indeed.


Quote:
Learning this stuff is not only Buddhist. The "stuff" is not Buddhist. That just one organization that talks about this stuff. Tolle talks about the same stuff, the 12 step programs talk about it, Jesus talked about it, thousands of "paths" talk about these subjects in varying degrees and ways, people can also find it on their own or be "built" in such a way they do it naturally.

My premise in this question is there are people who are "enlightened" to various degrees with zero spiritual or religious affiliation. This stuff is not "owned" by religion. One does not have to be religious or affiliated with any path to walk in a forest in inner silence detached from their thoughts. It comes natural to some people.


It simply doesn't matter what religion a person is or which spiritiual teacher they prefer. This is about true things, and truth is universal.


Quote:
One could argue they spent a lot of past lives studying Buddhism or something to get to the point this is what they exist as in an incarnation, but here again, this is backwards. It assumes the self realization came from Buddhism. That Buddhism is required for one to learn such things. Buddhism did not exist when Buddha found this thing. He found it naturally perhaps, lol I don't know as he did have knowledge of the early Vedas. Maybe that early Hinduism is what led him to enlightenment. Directed his self inquiry.


Sure, the historical account says Buddha did a lot of radical meditation before he found the middle way.


Quote:
I would assume that how "spiritual" a person is in a human body is on a scale of sorts. Lets say 1 is not spiritual at all, and 1000 is very spiritual. Lets say the majority of humans are somewhere in the middle, from like 400 to 600. Lets say some are pushing the high 700's. Well these groups of people exist in religion and out of religion. One high 700 may be a Buddhist, another may be a Christian, another may not be in a religion. Very low people exist in all groups as well as history shows. Paths are just there, it's up to individuals what they make out of them.


It doesn't really matter. People are just unique and we tend to enter delusion when we overly compare them in a scalar hierarchy. In the anapannasaut sutta, Buddha also refers to the sorts of people who attended there. He doesn't remark on their religion.


Quote:
This thread title is "Actualizing Buddhism" which means making it a living actual experience. Experience is not Buddhist, or Christian, or any "thing," it only becomes a thing when we describe it conceptually, with thought.


Exactly. Buddhism is merely a construct based on a narrative, rituals, and symbols. It is 'thought created' and not observable in nature.


Quote:
Thought can take control of experience and own it, color it, filter it, but it can exist with or without thought being a part of it. So really, actualized Buddhism ceases to be Buddhist. Actualized Buddhism is an experience, freedom from the conceptual, and Buddhism is a concept pointing to an experience.




Yes indeedy
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