Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Love & Relationships -Friends and Family

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 31-01-2018, 04:08 PM
hellabomer hellabomer is offline
Knower
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 155
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A human Being
Right, many of us do fear change, even when our current situation isn't a particularly happy one - we might feel miserable, but at least we feel secure in our misery. So many of us fear the worst, it doesn't seem to occur to us that things could actually change for the better.

Of course we're talking on the level of mind, but I was thinking more in terms of the level of felt experience - on the physical, energetic, emotional level. When you're feeling anxious, stressed, tense, etc., what is being resisted on the level of feeling?

On the level of feeling? That's something I gotta sit and think about. As I am not really sure what exactly I feel right now. Thank you so much for this question.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 31-01-2018, 05:40 PM
A human Being A human Being is offline
Master
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 2,354
  A human Being's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellabomer
On the level of feeling? That's something I gotta sit and think about. As I am not really sure what exactly I feel right now. Thank you so much for this question.
You're welcome! And you know I think we often get wrapped up in our mental stories and become unconscious of what's happening on the level of feeling, so that's no cause for embarrassment It's a good question to sit with, I think, can help to shift attention out of the mind and into the body
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-02-2018, 01:01 AM
pluralone pluralone is offline
Knower
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 234
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A human Being
Ultimately, anger - and all other forms of negativity, too, be it bitterness, resentment, self-pity, etc. - is resistance. The question is: What is being resisted?
This might be just a matter of semantics, but since we're relying on words to communicate here I'd like to expand a bit on the concept of emotional resistance. Of course I can only speak from my own perspective, so...

When I feel anger, I know that if I take a good look at it I'll discover a more specific feeling. I may feel hurt or disrespected or impatient or intolerant, etc. Maintaining the vague, angry feelings allows me to avoid (resist) confronting the cause; naming the underlying emotions prompts me to act. I have a tendency to just keep things at the angry stage because then I don't have to do anything. It's been quite a few years since I figured this out about myself, and I do my best to work through the anger and resolve the underlying conflict but truly my 'best' really sucks sometimes.

Anyway, point is that for me the avoidance or resistance is not about protecting myself from my feelings; it's about maintaining things as they are so I don't have to do anything to resolve them. This isn't going to be true for everyone, but I thought I'd throw that out there anyway just to share a slightly different perspective.
__________________
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 04-02-2018, 11:24 AM
A human Being A human Being is offline
Master
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 2,354
  A human Being's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pluralone
This might be just a matter of semantics, but since we're relying on words to communicate here I'd like to expand a bit on the concept of emotional resistance. Of course I can only speak from my own perspective, so...

When I feel anger, I know that if I take a good look at it I'll discover a more specific feeling. I may feel hurt or disrespected or impatient or intolerant, etc. Maintaining the vague, angry feelings allows me to avoid (resist) confronting the cause; naming the underlying emotions prompts me to act. I have a tendency to just keep things at the angry stage because then I don't have to do anything. It's been quite a few years since I figured this out about myself, and I do my best to work through the anger and resolve the underlying conflict but truly my 'best' really sucks sometimes.
Right, this is what I've found in my own experience, too - I've heard it said that anger is a secondary or 'cover' emotion, and when I examine my own angry feelings more closely, I do find this to be true. When I first started to investigate it more closely I was surprised to find that below the surface of the anger there were feelings of despair, hopelessness, powerlessness, and tremendous hurt, it made me realise that at the heart of every raging monster there's a distraught child. In my own case I was an extremely sensitive and troubled child, but as I got older I learnt to repress the hurt because it wasn't socially acceptable to express it, and one of the by-products of the repression, so it appeared, was negativity in the form of anger, resentment, bitterness, depression, etc. It's taken me a long time to come to terms with it because I'd unconsciously built up so much resistance to the underlying hurt, and it's only intensive meditation that has really started to shift things.
Quote:
Anyway, point is that for me the avoidance or resistance is not about protecting myself from my feelings; it's about maintaining things as they are so I don't have to do anything to resolve them. This isn't going to be true for everyone, but I thought I'd throw that out there anyway just to share a slightly different perspective.
Why is it that you're unwilling to do anything to resolve them, do you think? What in your opinion is required to resolve them?

Last edited by A human Being : 04-02-2018 at 01:58 PM. Reason: Added the second question
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 04-02-2018, 02:21 PM
pluralone pluralone is offline
Knower
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 234
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by A human Being
Why is it that you're unwilling to do anything to resolve them, do you think?
In part, it's just the way I dealt with negative emotions for most of my life. Avoidance became a habit pretty much as soon as I was able to form habits, and I didn't learn the tools I needed to change it until I was in my thirties. I've used those tools a LOT since then, but my default response is still avoidance, which is easy and natural compared to the effort of using my tools. Say the old habit is like flipping a light switch; the mindful response requires I take out my toolbox and repair the switch before it can be used. So 'easy' is a key word here.

'Control' is another good word, equally applicable in emotional circumstances that include other people. Long as I hang on to (avoid) my own emotions, I feel in control of the situation. Baring those emotions with the person to whom I'm responding (or avoiding responding) takes the control out of my hands and opens up all sorts of unknowns: How will the other person respond? What if the other person gets angry? Pretty scary stuff, at least as I look at it from the avoidance perspective.

And from there is gets more complicated and convoluted, but those are the main factors: Habit and wanting to maintain a sense of control.

Those are subconscious reasons, mind you. Ever since I learned the healthier tools for dealing with negative emotions, my goal has been (and remains) to take the more direct, mindful route to the best of my ability. At this point in my life I'm willing enough, but I'm not always able. Because... reasons. =-)
__________________
From time to time, I do consider that I might be mad. Like any self-respecting lunatic, however, I am always quick to dismiss any doubts about my sanity.
- Odd Thomas
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 04-02-2018, 08:45 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,311
  7luminaries's Avatar
This has been a very interesting thread so far with loads of good advice about seeking an authentic love as people and as friends as a general goal (for humanity at large, IMO)...and also about loving the self. I want to say to the OP (Hellabomer) that I am so sorry for your pain, and I think the advice to take time and care for yourself and be kind and loving to yourself is spot on.

I don't want to ask the OP to share anything she doesn't want to share. But I would also say, very practically, that keeping a focus on boundaries and concrete actions is also key to navigating all this going forward, IMO. So that going forward, the pain she is experiencing from her situation doesn't happen again needlessly. Lorelyen was, as I understood, getting at these same things. I find that for this kind of discussion, in practical terms, a rather good deal of specificity is often helpful...or may be, at least. Certainly, I have found this to be so when speaking for myself. Here is what I mean.

I just want to throw out some food for thought, in case the OP may find it helpful for consideration. There are...very, very generally speaking...four levels of intimate-type engagement and levels of severe heartbreak I will touch on, as a woman. These things overlap in various ways and perhaps not how we may usually think.

Here are the ways to engage in male/female partnerships:

1) emotional engagement, deep love but no touch (less common, occasional)
2) physical engagement, no love (common, but loathed by most women)
3) emotional and physical engagement as physical with partial emotional (common, but ultimately unfulfilling to many women)
4) authentic love in partnership - mutuality of full emotional, full physical engagement (almost non-existent in male-female relationships but HUGELY preferably to women, like 99.999999999% of us )

Here are the ways to experience severe heartbreak due to a sudden and go-forward absence of love day-to-day:
1) loss of beloved friend or would-be partner (separation or death)
4) loss of beloved friend AND partner (separation or death)

Here are the ways to experience severe heartbreak due to presence of trauma from a longstanding, ongoing (day-to-day) absence of love:
2) trauma due to either long-term or intermittent physical involvement (sex) without deeper emotional involvement
3) trauma due to the long-term, daily aspect of trauma and/or degree of emotional involvement lacking...often involving children and households, as well.

Very, very generally...It's the sudden and go-forward loss of a mutuality of love in the heart that causes one kind of heartbreak, whereas it's the trauma in the heart due to ongoing lack of love in the presence of penetration and sex generally that causes the second kind. The first is understandable...a deep mutual love in friendship or partnership is worth the risk of loss and heartbreak for most folks. Yet...Why would we even be in the 2nd situation? The simple answer is because we've often got involved physically (sexually) without a mutuality of deeper love and now we're either trying to rewrite the script to magically or hopefully include a mutual love, or we're trying to make our peace with the lack of mutual love since we're raising a family or what have ye. And because #4, the ideal, is still basically non-existent among humanity (I'll wager it will remain near-existent, as well, so long as women and men engage in relationships which are primarily sexual or needs-based, so it's really up to us to move the needle).

However, since 2 and 3 can be seen as being traumatic long-term and for the general duration, it makes very little sense to go there if you come to a place where your love and regard for your own self is equal to the love and regard you have & can potentially hold for others. Even though women do often want children and that drive is strong, we still have to own it and manage it wisely, particularly when we're younger but anytime really. Plenty of less mature gents really don't care and can take or leave children, and they are just happy to have sex with you if you seem willing but that in no way means they love you, or are looking to commit, or want kids. They figure women know this about them just as women figure gents know we don't want to be touched without authentic love. Obviously most of us are wrong most of the time, sadly.

So given this often huge gap in perspective, we individually have to break it to the gents of the world that sex for us is for those we love, who also love us...and given that mutuality of love, it's for when we're both ready to rise to it in some meaningful fashion. We're not here to be used long-term, nor for a joyride, whether or not we've had kids. And that means IMO that most of our potential partnerships and sexual connections should not occur and should simply be passed over, and that it's a good thing for everyone except horny gents who anyway will get over it and move on one way or another.

Because we matter too, and at some point, the loveless presence in the bed and in the home demanding sex becomes both heartbreaking and traumatic, and also simply needlessly abusive emotionally and spiritually. That's where we need to find our voices and communicate our truths, as soon as we've taken the time to heal and make a safe space for ourselves.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 04-02-2018, 10:54 PM
Crowzie Crowzie is offline
Pathfinder
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: In the Void
Posts: 54
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries

Here are the ways to experience severe heartbreak due to presence of trauma from a longstanding, ongoing (day-to-day) absence of love:
2) trauma due to either long-term or intermittent physical involvement (sex) without deeper emotional involvement
3) trauma due to the long-term, daily aspect of trauma and/or degree of emotional involvement lacking...often involving children and households, as well.

I made a huge mistake in a relationship because I felt emotionally and physically starved. For the longest time, I felt like I deserved it too. I was so used to be told I wasn't enough, or not doing things to their standards...everything that went wrong according to them was my fault. But in actuality, they were numb emotionally, and moved on long before they ended the relationship. I felt used by the one person I loved the most. It makes a lot of sense as to why I made the mistake I did...I needed to feel love and appreciation from someone that saw me.

I realize that a lot of what it came down to was lack of self-love. I didn't feel like I could love myself if they didn't, because at the time, my world revolved around them. In retrospect, they didn't love themselves enough either.

Thank you for your insight.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 05-02-2018, 11:21 AM
A human Being A human Being is offline
Master
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Manchester, England
Posts: 2,354
  A human Being's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by pluralone
In part, it's just the way I dealt with negative emotions for most of my life. Avoidance became a habit pretty much as soon as I was able to form habits, and I didn't learn the tools I needed to change it until I was in my thirties. I've used those tools a LOT since then, but my default response is still avoidance, which is easy and natural compared to the effort of using my tools. Say the old habit is like flipping a light switch; the mindful response requires I take out my toolbox and repair the switch before it can be used. So 'easy' is a key word here.
Mindful living requires an on-going commitment, for sure, because unconsciousness is such an ingrained habit and very easy to slip into. Important to have faith in the process, I think, I know in my own experience I often doubt whether it's really having an effect, if I'm just wasting my time, and so on, especially when progress seems slow or even non-existent.
Quote:
'Control' is another good word, equally applicable in emotional circumstances that include other people. Long as I hang on to (avoid) my own emotions, I feel in control of the situation. Baring those emotions with the person to whom I'm responding (or avoiding responding) takes the control out of my hands and opens up all sorts of unknowns: How will the other person respond? What if the other person gets angry? Pretty scary stuff, at least as I look at it from the avoidance perspective.
Right, what if you express your true feelings and the other person doesn't react in a supportive way, ridicules you, maybe even rejects you outright? We're social animals so we do tend to fear ostracism, no (wo)man is an island and all that. But then if we can't express our true feelings to others, our relationships are never going to be very fulfilling - I got to a point where I felt like I was forever having to wear a mask and it just became dispiriting, not to mention draining, and I would typically avoid social interactions because I'd rather be alone than have to keep up a pretence. First and foremost I think it's vital to feel at peace within oneself, and that means embracing rather than pushing away your emotional experience; when you can do that, it gets easier to express your feelings to others I think.
Quote:
Those are subconscious reasons, mind you. Ever since I learned the healthier tools for dealing with negative emotions, my goal has been (and remains) to take the more direct, mindful route to the best of my ability. At this point in my life I'm willing enough, but I'm not always able. Because... reasons. =-)
That's the case for most of us I should think - such is life :) But with practice those moments happen with far less frequency.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 05-02-2018, 04:56 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,311
  7luminaries's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crowzie
I made a huge mistake in a relationship because I felt emotionally and physically starved. For the longest time, I felt like I deserved it too. I was so used to be told I wasn't enough, or not doing things to their standards...everything that went wrong according to them was my fault. But in actuality, they were numb emotionally, and moved on long before they ended the relationship. I felt used by the one person I loved the most. It makes a lot of sense as to why I made the mistake I did...I needed to feel love and appreciation from someone that saw me.

I realize that a lot of what it came down to was lack of self-love. I didn't feel like I could love myself if they didn't, because at the time, my world revolved around them. In retrospect, they didn't love themselves enough either.

Thank you for your insight.

Crow I'm so sorry for your past troubles and I'm glad what I shared has resonated or affirmed your own experience in some way.

You sound wise in the most universal sense, in that in speaking for yourself, I feel so many others can see themselves in your shoes. I'm glad you've found some clarity and perspective on this, and hopefully some peace.

I feel that it's taking time for women to realise, love, and accept themselves as they are within this very degrading cultural context we live in. And the same for men but in their case it's the dominance and predation roles imposed on them that are dehumanising, if all too addictive for many.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 05-02-2018, 05:03 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,311
  7luminaries's Avatar
I have a few other thoughts on the topic, just broadly, which may or may not apply to the OP specifically. But which may also be helpful to some for consideration.

I feel that it's taking time for women to realise, love, and accept themselves as they are within this very degrading cultural context we live in. And the same for men but in their case it's the dominance and predation roles imposed on them that are dehumanising, if all too addictive for many.

Women do have a drive for love and companionship in all their relationships, not just partner-based ones. But until they've had kids or passed that era in their lives, the vast majority have some trouble sorting out the powerful and pervasive effect of that drive for children in their lives, as it operates at a subconscious level unless brought forward. Deep self-awareness and a penetrating level of self-reflection is needed by most women to more fully grasp the effect of this powerful drive on their behaviour, and I'm convinced we've barely scratched the surface here.

Our mainstream culture of predation and on-demand sexual compliance of women has a horrific effect on many women as they go about their woman's way of seeking loving connections -- or attempting to do so -- in a sea of predation, exploitation, and base utilitarianism. We need to have our full wits about us, so to speak. Clarity of thought and time spent on knowing and loving the self...so that we have the presence of mind, the integrity, and the strength to know what we truly want and need -- in fulfillment of our overriding basic drives: 1) to make authentically loving connections all round and 2) for kids.

Within this context, I have another concern, aside from cultural brainwashing ("your value is based on pleasing men at all costs regarding their demands for casual sex without love or commitment") and eroding of self-worth. Medicating ourselves primarily for men's use has the effect of tampering with our biochemistry and neurology in ways that affects our judgment of potential partners, according to recent studies, steering us toward casual or shorter-term partners at a subconscious level.

Like all psychotropic, systemic, and powerful drugs, they are potentially inhibiting our full capacity for good judgment and thus our free will and the full impact of this is likely not yet known. There are valid medical uses but I personally feel their psychotropic impact is vastly, hugely understated...and that amounts to a potentially almost criminal abrogation of a woman's judgment and free will.

So...I want to caution basically nigh every woman as they try to navigate:

1) a culture of predation and base exploitation, which gives rise to imbalance in relationships and to men's demands for casual sex via "dating", without love and typically without any meaningful commitment, and their insistence that this is both normative and "good" -- a claim that is meaningless to the individual woman if it is not in her best interests

and

2) ownership and awareness of their own fundamental drives for authentic love in partnership, and for family.

...all whilst frequently on powerful psychotropic medication, otherwise known as "hormonal birth control". Which tend to medicate, mask, skew, and misdirect a woman's judgment and decision-making regarding sex and partnership in fundamental ways we are only just begun to discover.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums