Can you do Pagan Rituals and not be Pagan ?

[norseman]

I am amused by your dismissal of Bede as a valid historical reference in favour of .... who ? Forget American Folklore, it has nothing to do with pre-christian Europe.
Christian festivals were deliberately placed at existing pagan festivals because the church knew that the dates would be celebrated anyway, so it was a highjack of a pre-existing tradition. The dates of the pagan festivals were based on the Wheel of the Year - solstices and the like - and agricultural realities.
Since you argue against Bede, may I assume that you have historical proofs concerning Christ's existence and life, apart from a book of dubious authenticity ? Perhaps a thought should be given to Bede's bias in favour of his own religion ?
btw Christian Easter is not a fixed date, it is geared [again] to the Wheel of the Year - I wonder where they got that idea from !
So the argument boils down to Bronze/Iron Age cultures -v- unsupported mythology of christianity, a political invention of the Roman Empire.

Originally Posted by norseman

I am amused by your dismissal of Bede as a valid historical reference in favour of .... who ? Forget American Folklore, it has nothing to do with pre-christian Europe.
Christian festivals were deliberately placed at existing pagan festivals because the church knew that the dates would be celebrated anyway, so it was a highjack of a pre-existing tradition. The dates of the pagan festivals were based on the Wheel of the Year - solstices and the like - and agricultural realities.
Since you argue against Bede, may I assume that you have historical proofs concerning Christ's existence and life, apart from a book of dubious authenticity ? Perhaps a thought should be given to Bede's bias in favour of his own religion ?
btw Christian Easter is not a fixed date, it is geared [again] to the Wheel of the Year - I wonder where they got that idea from !
So the argument boils down to Bronze/Iron Age cultures -v- unsupported mythology of christianity, a political invention of the Roman Empire.

Yeah, sure. Let's ignore the fact that the wheel of the year is a totally modern invention.
Paschal (I am now using that term, since people seem incapable of understanding the way the term Easter is used) was set in date to roughly match with the Pesach, which is surprise, Passover. Note Passover- Not some pagan holiday.

Which means that it was set before it was brought to northern Europe by missionaries. The Church practiced inculturation which is a method to ease conversion by adapting holiday celebrations to the local culture, before bringing them back into a more Church friendly form. Like I said, go ask a person in Israel what color they like to dye their Easter eggs, and unless they're decked out with Hallmark Easter greeting cards, they'll likely say "what? haha".

To quote Peter Griffin, "Lois, the Easter bunny died for your sins in that helicopter crash." <---- that seems to be the sentiment with many modern pagans when discussing the celebration of Easter. They mistake extraneous traditions and customs for being original to the holiday of Paschal/Easter.

I personally think it's likely that many customs, not just during Easter, have pre-Christianish roots. But I am not going to blindly parrot it without citing any real proof to validate it.

And just to note, there's far more evidence to support the existence of a Jesus figure in 1st century Judea, than there is to support the actual cult and worship of a goddess mentioned by a single Anglo-Saxon writer in one sentence.

[norseman]

"Let's ignore the fact that the wheel of the year is a totally modern invention."

How many billions of years old is the Earth ? The Wheel of Year is determined by such things as axial tilt, etc - all the things that determine the seasons.

A Nature/Fertility goddess was honoured as far back [at least !] as the last Ice Age with figurines being found all along the glacier line in Northern Europe. The same figurines have also been dredged from the bottom of the North Sea which finally flooded around 6000 BC. Eostre is just one name of the goddess, one among thousands over the millenia.

Easter as such or whatever it is called across the world is a variable date determined by the change of the seasons [i.e The Wheel] and is NOT a man-made date at all. All the pagan festival dates were determined by seasonal changes and agricultural events, that's why they are always given as approximate.

Originally Posted by norseman

"Let's ignore the fact that the wheel of the year is a totally modern invention."

How many billions of years old is the Earth ? The Wheel of Year is determined by such things as axial tilt, etc - all the things that determine the seasons.

A Nature/Fertility goddess was honoured as far back [at least !] as the last Ice Age with figurines being found all along the glacier line in Northern Europe. The same figurines have also been dredged from the bottom of the North Sea which finally flooded around 6000 BC. Eostre is just one name of the goddess, one among thousands over the millenia.

Easter as such or whatever it is called across the world is a variable date determined by the change of the seasons [i.e The Wheel] and is NOT a man-made date at all. All the pagan festival dates were determined by seasonal changes and agricultural events, that's why they are always given as approximate.

Agreed--for example the Chinese New Year occurs (not on a specific date, but)--when the Sun transits into the Astrological Sign of Aquarius.

My Tradition observes the Festival of Spring and the turning of the Seasons at the Vernal Equinox.

The SummerSolstice occurs when the Sun transits into the Astrological sign of Cancer--and so on throughout the Wheel-of-the-Year.

To say that people invented the Wheel--is like saying that people invented MotherEarth and FatherUniverse--MotherMoon and FatherSun--all the Planets that traverse the Heavens within our tiny portion of the Galaxy and the Galaxy (itself).

Peace and Love on everyone's path to doing their own research and forming their own opinions...

Blessed be...

Originally Posted by norseman

"Let's ignore the fact that the wheel of the year is a totally modern invention."

How many billions of years old is the Earth ? The Wheel of Year is determined by such things as axial tilt, etc - all the things that determine the seasons.

A Nature/Fertility goddess was honoured as far back [at least !] as the last Ice Age with figurines being found all along the glacier line in Northern Europe. The same figurines have also been dredged from the bottom of the North Sea which finally flooded around 6000 BC. Eostre is just one name of the goddess, one among thousands over the millenia.

Easter as such or whatever it is called across the world is a variable date determined by the change of the seasons [i.e The Wheel] and is NOT a man-made date at all. All the pagan festival dates were determined by seasonal changes and agricultural events, that's why they are always given as approximate.

The wheel of the year is a modern invention. It was created in part by Ross Nichols and was originally used by Wiccans and neo-druids, and it's an amalgamation of a few Celtic holidays that are theorized to have a pre-Christian origin, and some Germanic holidays (Jul/Yule for example). But the idea that all ancient peoples set their calendars by a solar year, like in the modern wheel of the year isn't supported by the evidence. Bealtainn, Samhain, Yule, etc. were all calculated by seasonal changes, rather than astrological ones. Sure, the sun played a big part, since it causes the changes of the seasons; but the reckoning for the dates of holidays wasn't fixed to a set, Gregorian calendar like we have today.
For instance, Yule, the holiday so many pagans extol as the rebirth of the sun god, and all that Frazer-esque theology, doesn't fit in the way the holiday was used by Icelanders, Swedes, and Anglo-Saxons. The Yule holiday, which stretched over several days, was always at the midpoint of winter when people would have little to nothing to do, except socialize and feast with each other - thus, you have Yule beginning after December 21st, or even before, and even sometimes in January depending upon the local climate.

And like I said before, Easter is calibrated to coincide with Passover. The whole idea of some pan-pagan egg-rabbit festival being the original Paschal/Easter is mostly a romantic notion, rather than a historical one.

[norseman]

I would argue that Ross Nichol and Gardner formalised the Festival calender based on old agricultural calenders but the base was in the Wheel of the Year - astronomic and meteorologic. I suppose the proof of that is the 6-month difference between North and South hemisphere. Dates were always approximate to fit in with local conditions.
Don't suppose we will ever agree on this but it is important to have differences in opinion

Originally Posted by norseman

I would argue that Ross Nichol and Gardner formalised the Festival calender based on old agricultural calenders but the base was in the Wheel of the Year - astronomic and meteorologic. I suppose the proof of that is the 6-month difference between North and South hemisphere. Dates were always approximate to fit in with local conditions.
Don't suppose we will ever agree on this but it is important to have differences in opinion

Everyone must decide for themselves.

However--some of us (yours truly--included ) have trouble swallowing the given birth of certain concepts--just because that is when it was finally written down.

Allow me to illustrate by using good old Chris Columbus. I have always been quite certain that the People of South American knew exactly who and where they were--long before he "Discovered" them.

Peace and Love on your path to doing your own research and forming your own opinions...

Blessed be...

Originally Posted by norseman

Don't suppose we will ever agree on this but it is important to have differences in opinion

I agree on that!

I have never met a greater teacher with more knowledge and awarness then Norse,. He is a actual Teacher I learn alot from him. It saddens me that people refuse to research and imstead play king of the mountian on this subject. To be quite honest I am not a strong believer in Dieties I am a Witch. The entire subject makes me hate organized religion even more.
I have a good Idea if you dont like what Norse has to say instead of trying to shut him up by throwing mediocre authurs at best at him. Burn him to the steak.
Animus27 you make me proud of not having a diety. Fact of the matter is the pagans created the seasons not the christians. The pagans created the holidays not the christians so?
.“When did Christians begin to celebrate Christmas?”
The history of Christmas, as we know it, has it’s roots in celebrations that began thousands of years before the birth of Jesus. In the dead of winter, when the earth and darkness had almost become one, there came a ray of hope—the winter solstice. The celebration of the solstice, the “official” end of winter and the beginning of the lengthening of days, has been a northern-hemisphere celebration as far back as written and oral history can take us—some suggest as many as 4,000 years ago.

In Europe, solstice celebrations were popular among the Germanic peoples who honored the god Oden; the Norse celebrated the festival of the Yule (an agricultural fest); in Rome the feasts of Saturnalia, Juvenalia, and the birth of Mithra, the sun god were celebrated. The most popular festival in Rome was Saturnalia, since the celebrations embraced a reversal of the social order and servants and slaves “ruled” the towns and homes in a time of hilarity and fun.

The Church didn’t celebrate the birth of Jesus for 300 years after his death and resurrection. However, by the beginning of the fourth century church officials decided to institute a holy feast day marking the birth. Since the Bible makes no mention of the date, or even the time of year, when Jesus was born, Pope Julius I “arbitrarily” chose December 25th as the day for the “Feast of the Nativity.” However, it took another 400 years before the “feast” had become common throughout the European continent.
This is what religion brought with it.

Study more show Norse where he is wrong but dont have a peeing contest. Me and norse was raised on this sort teachings and it was beat into us through our heritage and culture and then I personally studied for over 20yrs I am thinking Norse studied longer. I am in no way saying your wrong I am saying your spoon fed nonsence.

Study more show Norse where he is wrong but dont have a peeing contest. Me and norse was raised on this sort teachings and it was beat into us through our heritage and culture and then I personally studied for over 20yrs I am thinking Norse studied longer. I am in no way saying your wrong I am saying your spoon fed nonsence.

Occultist, that above sentence is exactly why "witches" and "pagans" have such a hard time being taken seriously.

How about you cast away your presumptions about religion and history and pick up some history books, written by people who know what they're talking about, instead of linking an asinine picture about the "Burning Times" which is considered modern nonsense, perpetuated by glittery websites created by people with silly made up names. I'm not denying the fact that the Church did atrocious things - but the whole idea of some mass murdering of sooper sekret witch parade, isn't anywhere as factual as some teenage polemics suggest.

Again, it seems you ignore all of my posts and parrot your information, even though I've shown it to be questionable.

I feel sorry for you if you've studied for 20 years and still spout such misinformation and half-informed ideas. Maybe you should pick up the spoon and eat at the wealth of knowledge and study available.