Bliss or Ananda is to do with continuity, not quantity

[sky]

Originally Posted by acorn

Sky talks about mindfulness ...I realized that I did not use this word very often ..but that it is also my approach ...mindfulness to me is very much like japa..or a mantra in that you try to keep the mind on one thing or subject to the exclusion of the myriad of thoughts that pop into the mind...so mindfulness to me is like a rudder on a ship...it steers me away from the sandbars so that my ship will not run aground...funny how different words can shake the tree so to speak


Love
acorn

What about ' anchor '

[Shivani Devi]

Bliss is always there, like electricity we choose to plug in to or a computer program we choose to upload into our brains at the time....it's always on tap and in constant, unlimited supply.

I guess that some people have a quiet/gentle bliss experience thing where they can hide or ignore it altogether so they can go about doing their daily business....while for others it places them flat on the floor, writhing in inner bliss, joy, love and happiness and while this second state is totally wonderful, it tires the whole mind/body/spirit thing out for about a week afterward...it's just that intense....

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Miss Hepburn]

Originally Posted by dattaseva

Generally, people think that excessive happiness is Ananda/bliss. It is a wrong notion.

The only aspect in which a person can become exactly like God is by
maintaining the continuity of happiness without any break in his/her life.
Similarly, if you can also be happy continuously throughout your life by
deriving entertainment from different incidents in your surroundings,
you’ll become equal to God from all angles in this single aspect, which is
the continuity of happiness.

When tragedy arrives, you have to enjoy it like enjoying a hot chilly dish.
In such case, the continuity of your enjoyment is not at all disturbed.

Once this final goal is achieved by you, all other aspects of God, which
are only the means to achieve such a goal, become zero.
The superpowers of God to create, maintain and destroy the world are
ineffective and immaterial once the goal of continuous happiness is achieved.

But remember that you should confine yourself only to this
single aspect of continuous happiness.

I loved this post.

I understood this post completely.
I believe I was rushed the 1st time through.
(I just have an issue with the words 'only or should and all'...no biggy.
but, you could be right!)

I wish I had said the above.

Excellent. Yes, when agony is also ecstasy....Bingo!

[dattaseva]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Bliss is always there, like electricity we choose to plug in to or a computer program we choose to upload into our brains at the time....it's always on tap and in constant, unlimited supply.

I guess that some people have a quiet/gentle bliss experience thing where they can hide or ignore it altogether so they can go about doing their daily business....while for others it places them flat on the floor, writhing in inner bliss, joy, love and happiness and while this second state is totally wonderful, it tires the whole mind/body/spirit thing out for about a week afterward...it's just that intense....

Aum Namah Shivaya

Namaste,

Let me share a story. An impoverished peasant once received the news that he won a 100 million-dollar lottery. He became so intensely happy that he got a heart attack and died right then and there.

Bliss or ananda is simply the ability to derive enjoyment during both the good as well as the bad times; it has nothing do with the quantity of happiness.

For example, when a person eats a really hot chilli, his tongue vibrates and tears stream down his eyes. To an ignorant onlooker, the person may seem as if he's undergoing overwhelming pain. However, only he knows internally that he's enjoying each and every minute of the intense sensation.

Similarly, someone who's blessed with this extremely rare state of bliss may appear to be just as miserable as the other people around him during a tragic situation. But, internally, that blessed soul is actually enjoying the tragedy like a detached cinema spectator.

It's incredibly hard to spot such a soul unless he or she chooses to reveal his/her inner state. And even then, one may not believe the person's claims as most judge the state of a soul only by external appearances. This state of bliss does not apply to the majority of others (including me), who are fooled by illusory feelings/thoughts (modifications of pure awareness) and who end up getting caught in the net of 'maya' so to speak.

Lord Rama, a past human incarnation of God, cried like a baby when His brother, Lakshmana (an incarnation of Adisesha, the most devoted servant of the Lord), was badly wounded in a war. Although externally Lord Rama seemed as if He were in immense pain, internally, He was an ocean of bliss. This is the innate state of God.

And God, being the most compassionate one, also aims to give this state of continuous enjoyment/entertainment to all His beloved souls, whether they be theists or atheists. At the same time, He also grants relative freedom to each soul, wherein he or she may make a choice (broadly speaking, between truth and illusion). The attainment of this state of bliss also depends upon the soul and the efforts it makes to apply the illusion-destroying teachings of the Lord in the right context.

[dattaseva]

Originally Posted by Miss Hepburn

I loved this post.

I just have an issue with the words 'only or should and all'...no biggy.
but, you could be right!

The words you've pointed out are only to express the duality between God (beyond creation) and the soul (a part of creation). Monism is possible only in the case of the human incarnations of God, such as Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Mahavatar Babaji, Jesus, Sai Baba, etc.

However, monism is potentially possible for all souls, in the sense that with the right efforts and God's grace, anyone may become a human incarnation of God in the future. But for the time being, if you're an ordinary soul like I am, duality is to be maintained for progressing on the spiritual path.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by dattaseva

It's incredibly hard to spot such a soul unless he or she chooses to reveal his/her inner state. And even then, one may not believe the person's claims as most judge the state of a soul only by external appearances.

If we are to 'believe' the Vedas and the Upanishads, who is 'claiming' and who is 'believing'?

I doubt an enlightened person would 'claim' to be thus, because a claim then begs belief and a 'claim' is also not a 'truth' either.

So, if a person only claims to be realised, they are not...'exclaimed' is another matter.

...and what is this 'belief' thing? A 'belief' isn't true either...or else it wouldn't be a belief.

So, even if person (a) says "I am self-realised" and person (b) says "I don't believe you" then person (a) is well within their rights to say either one of two things:

1. What is there to believe when it's true? or
2. Thanks for your belief, but as it didn't happen to you, what would you know about it?

So, person (b) may then say "prove it?" and how does one go about proving that which can't even be spoken of?

This is why I am of the opinion (just as bad as 'belief') that all experiences are subjectively 'real' leading to the whole 'world is maya/illusion' bit.

That's how I know the world is an illusion.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Shivani Devi]

I've just been informed by my Higher Self that what I am speaking of is also called "The Lord's Grace" or "The Lord's Mercy".

There are some, by all outward appearance look downright beastly and they can do unseemly things at times...this is their leela!

Does it mean they are not pure within even though they are totally impure superficially? not in the least...and why do you think it is I love Lord Shiva so much? He's not what he only seems to be.

The 'illusion' is that we all exist externally and take it from one who is forced to do this to survive or else I would not - I have turned myself inside-out many times over and I have experienced things, but there's always more to go....

So it's an on-going thing and there isn't any end to it, except for The Lord's Grace or Mercy.

Sometimes God will grant even the most underserving, unclean and unholy of us self-realisation - it's a karma thing.

Aum Namah Shivaya

[dattaseva]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

If we are to 'believe' the Vedas and the Upanishads, who is 'claiming' and who is 'believing'?

I doubt an enlightened person would 'claim' to be thus, because a claim then begs belief and a 'claim' is also not a 'truth' either.

So, if a person only claims to be realised, they are not...'exclaimed' is another matter.

...and what is this 'belief' thing? A 'belief' isn't true either...or else it wouldn't be a belief.

So, even if person (a) says "I am self-realised" and person (b) says "I don't believe you" then person (a) is well within their rights to say either one of two things:

1. What is there to believe when it's true? or
2. Thanks for your belief, but as it didn't happen to you, what would you know about it?

So, person (b) may then say "prove it?" and how does one go about proving that which can't even be spoken of?

True, as you say, a self-realized person wouldn’t likely make a claim about his or her state. But maybe, in an exceptional case, when a doubtful but also very sincere seeker aims to discern the enlightened person’s state, then yes, maybe such a situation would call for making a claim on the latter’s part.

And as you’ve said, it’s not objectively possible to prove the state of a soul who’s truly enlightened. So it all comes down to belief. For instance, if you can verify 9 out of 10 things coming from a person (using logic based upon experience), then I suppose you can make a jump and also take 10th practically unverifiable aspect as true.

Also, I differentiate self-realization from bliss (ananda). It’s difficult to put across a message when the associated meanings for certain commonly used spiritual terms change from case to case.

I don’t know what you mean when you say self-realization, but for me, this term would simply mean realizing the nature of one’s true being. This realization for me is that the soul is simply a part of this ocean of cosmic energy (Brahman) that exists everywhere in the world. However, the soul is not and can never be Parabrahman (God) in the literal sense.

Self-realization is theoretical knowledge of the truth while liberation (moksha) is practical freedom from worldly bonds. By this, one achieves a state of immense peace, becoming immune to both happiness and misery. Even an atheist can become self-realized becomes it only refers to the true knowledge of one’s ‘self’.

Ananda/bliss, however, is the state that arises due to ‘union’ with God, not in a literal sense, but in a more metaphorical way. Ananda is the result of sayujya or kaivalya, when the only bond that exists in life is the one with God (based of course, on unconditional love). Liberation (moksha) from all worldly bonds is like the halfway point of the spiritual journey, while sayujya/kaivalya (union with God) is the end goal of my spiritual path.

Of course, I understand that you may not agree with I have to say. But nevertheless, if a productive discussion has to take place, we need to both be clear of the meanings we assign to the words we use.

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

This is why I am of the opinion (just as bad as 'belief') that all experiences are subjectively 'real' leading to the whole 'world is maya/illusion' bit.

That's how I know the world is an illusion.

Aum Namah Shivaya

A person with a defect in his eyes may see two suns in the sky. But thankfully, with the help of other people who have normal vision, he can realize that there’s actually just a single sun.

Anything that is part of this creation (even the most subtle parts) can be obectively analyzed with the help of science. The world as we know it runs according to certain perceivable ( and also certain yet-to-be discovered) laws of nature that can never be transgressed by ordinary humans. Only in the case of certain divine souls (who have been blessed by God) or the human form of God do these laws become mere illusion. I don’t know about you, but for me, living according to the the laws of nature is crucial.

If I were to be blessed with the power to fly or heal incurable diseases, then some part of the world would be illusory for me, but only with respect to other ordinary people who don’t have such powers. However, even then, the rest of the world (with its gravity, sound, light, etc.) would be quite real. Only for God is this world completely unreal. Being a part of creation, I can say that the world of forms and feelings (modifications/forms of matter, energy and awareness) is unreal for me. But the underlying matter, energy and awareness is completely real. After all, I, the soul, am pure awareness and part of creation.

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

There are some, by all outward appearance look downright beastly and they can do unseemly things at times...this is their leela!

Does it mean they are not pure within even though they are totally impure superficially? not in the least...and why do you think it is I love Lord Shiva so much? He's not what he only seems to be.

Lord Shiva is an energetic incarnation of God who represents tamas. He is always in the state of divine intoxication. His appearance can be misjudged by people with sattvic or rajasic tendencies. But the supreme Lord is beyond all qualities; only we humans are attracted to a certain quality as opposed to another.

However, that does not mean all Shiva Bhakts are also pure or impure, for that matter, Purity or impurity is simply to be decided based on the person’s state of devotion. If one loves the Lord with some end goal in mind, he or she is impure not matter how many superpowers/siddhis he/she has attained. If one loves the Lord unconditionally without expecting anything in return (even moksha for that matter), then such a devotee is immensely pure even if he or she seems like an ordinary soul.

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Sometimes God will grant even the most underserving, unclean and unholy of us self-realisation - it's a karma thing.

Aum Namah Shivaya

God knows best. Even the most undeserving soul may only ‘seem’ to be so. Internally, the intense attachment that he may have to the Lord is known only by the Lord Himself.

Finally, I’d like to say that some of what I’ve shared with you is based on experience and most comes from the teachings of the one whom I consider to be my Satguru. His teachings can be found at www.universal-spirituality.org, if ever you want to look them up. Cheers.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by dattaseva

God knows best. Even the most undeserving soul may only ‘seem’ to be so. Internally, the intense attachment that he may have to the Lord is known only by the Lord Himself.

Namaste.

Precisely! Bingo!

....and whether they have attained Moksha is also only known to the Lord Himself.

The words and terms we all use are based upon our own limited perceptions of this reality.

You use the example of the sun, yes the sun shines even though clouds cover it from time to time and even those with sight cannot see it, but they know it is there.

What if there were no sun and we only believed there was a sun? one sun? then, because it is a belief, the man who sees two suns, can see two suns and can't be corrected by those who can only see one sun.

It's like those who worship more than one God...yes, God exists but I cannot tell other Hindus that only one God exists, can I?

If we compare the Trimurti to Gunas and if Lord Shiva is Tamas Guna, then Lord Vishnu represents Rajas Guna and Lord Brahma is Sattva Guna - it's only logical that it will be this way, if you compare the Gods to Gunas....

Maybe the reason why Lord Shiva represents Tamas Guna is because He is very adept in destroying it within the heart of His most sincerest devotees.

There is also that which goes beyond the form of Shiva....that is known as Sadashiva or Maha Rudra and that is beyond all the Gunas.

Yes, you and I are going to disagree often because we follow completely different paths and schools of thought and as such, I have no interest in that link - or I'll put it along with the other hundreds of 'must read' things I have amassed over the years by others of a different path seeking me to have a broader understanding of that which I don't require a broader understanding of at this time.

I am totally, blissfully and 100% happy, satisfied and totally content following the path I follow as I am sure you are.

To others I may appear as ignorant...to others...you may appear ignorant to a Christian person or a Muslim person because you are not a Christian or a Muslim....see how it works?

This is why I say that everybody's experience is totally subjective and unique because another may say that I am 'ignorant' but I know I am not and then they may say 'that is because you are delusional' and I know I am not that either - I am nothing that others say I am whatsoever....and I have learned that it is fine. I have learned 'to each their own' and 'never the twain shall meet' and this is why I say that the world is an illusion....it is Maya.

Your truth is your truth - even though many on your link also believe it and my truth is my truth - even though probably only a handful of Aghoris believe it and we can argue whose 'truth' is 'true' all day long, but it makes no difference because God surpasses all that.

It also makes no difference if one worships God as Shiva or God as Krishna...God is God and I only choose to worship God as Shiva because that is the way God has appeared to me, but to say something like "Krishna is God and Shiva is not" or "Krishna is God and Shiva is only a demi-God" is placing limitation upon the omnipresence and omniscience of God.

I can say "I have experienced God in the form of Shiva" and have others saying "well then, your experience must be wrong"....but hang on then, it is my experience and not the other person's experience and if it leads me to the place where I experience everything as being Shiva and my heart explodes with the fullness, the totality, the happiness, the joy, the peace and the total unconditional love of it all, that's good enough for me.

Bliss or ananda is to do with both continuity and quality. Sure, transitory happiness over materialistic pursuits is only transitory but this isn't ananda....it is just happiness, not true bliss.

When we talk about sat chit ananda - truth, consciousness-bliss it is the quantity of it which sets it apart from a worldly happiness or happiness caused through attachment and it is the continuity of it which says 'this comes directly from God'.

It's just that we lose focus of the continuity aspect of it when our minds become otherwise engaged in worldly pursuits, or else we'd all be walking around 24/7 totally love-drunk, god intoxicated and tripping off the planet without the ability to interact with the world on any level whatsoever....yep, that sounds familiar. lol

Aum Namah Shivaya

[Shivani Devi]

Also, what I should be doing about it all is doing what I do best - expounding Yoga treatise.

I notice whenever anybody asks a question about Hatha Yoga, Chakras or Kundalini Energy and I post on the thread doing my 'Patanjali thing' the thread always dies and this is a good thing.

There's Shiva the destroyer....and then there's Necro, the 'thread destroyer'. lol

Also, if I am in the 'mode of ignorance' because I worship Shiva, that's also others just saying it - it isn't a 'universal truth' - it's only yet another 'personal truth' based on the teachings of others which are not my teachings.

I am Tantric....always have been and always will be....and others seem to have a problem with that, but seeing as how I don't have a problem with other people's problems....that is their problem.

It is all an illusion and the only reality is that everybody's excreta stinks, no matter what they worship....they only like to believe it doesn't stink or at least 'smells better' than those who worship a 'different God'....so, off I go teaching Yoga and meditation to those who wish to learn.

Aum Namah Shivaya