Paul of Tarsus - Where did he get his wisdom

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by theophilus

Before his conversion Paul studies the Hebrew scriptures under the guidance of Gamaliel. He probably knew them as well as any human could but their true meaning can only be grasped by the help of the Holy Spirit. After his conversion the Spirit helped him to understand them better and also revealed new truths that were previously unknown. In his final teaching before his crucifixion Jesus said he had new things to teach his followers but that they weren't yet ready to receive them. Paul was the channel through which he revealed these teachings.

If I am not mistaken, Paul's teacher Gamaliel also cautioned against the persecution of Christians. It is my understanding as well that Gamaliel was indeed a revered, wise teacher to Paul.

Your post came right after I posted something similar. The "Light" could very well be called the "Holy Spirit", as you indicated in your post. We may be saying the same thing with different terminology. Since this is a "Christianity" thread, your choice of words is probably preferable.

Your other statement was intriguing when you wrote "In his final teaching before his crucifixion Jesus said he had new things to teach his followers but that they weren't yet ready to receive them. Paul was the channel through which he revealed these teachings." People forget that most of the 12 apostles were uneducated fisherman which, although not an impediment to spiritual awakening, prevented them to some degree from preaching intellectually/scripturally in the manner that the educated Paul could do. Also, since Paul was a zealot in persecuting Christians, perhaps Jesus saw him as a zealot preacher of Christianity after the "conversion" and this proved to be true. As you duly noted, Paul is indeed an intriguing Biblical "channel" through whom Jesus could reveal his teachings in a very special way.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

You mentioned that you see this as an allegory and I won't dispute that. Personally, I think (but I am not sure) that there are a lot of Biblical stories that are not accurate from a historical perspective with Exodus being one of them. You consider them to be allegories while I consider them to be "teaching myths" so we are essentially taking similar positions on some of the Biblical stories. Without arguing whether they are fact or allegory/myth, I simply stick to the principal point which is being made.

Having said that, "something obviously switched his light on and what was previously hiding in the dark came to light".

Edgar Cayce, the "Sleeping Prophet", addresses this from a different perspective. Using Cayce's terminology, he indicated that the "Light" flooded Paul's "superconscious" and permeated his "subconscious" but not all of it made it down to Paul's "conscious" mind since it was too much to absorb in that particular moment. Therefore, in that incident on the road to Damascus, a "light" did indeed "go on" but it may not have been a complete enlightening experience. Although Cayce was a Christian mystic, it's interesting to note that his readings are often very consistent with eastern scriptures as well.

I haven't read any of Cayce teachings so I can't comment.
I know that some see Saul as being physically blind I see him as being Spiritually blind .

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sky123

I haven't read any of Cayce teachings so I can't comment.
I know that some see Saul as being physically blind I see him as being Spiritually blind .

Spiritual blindness is indeed a possibility though my sense is that it was physical blindness.

With a multiple-personality disorder (albeit a psychotic condition not applicable to Paul), one personality can have a serious dis-ease such as diabetes while the other personality does not. Instantaneous "cures" can be explained in this manner though there are obviously other alternative explanations.

In any case, whether the story is literally true or allegorical in some of its aspects, it is still instructive in many ways.

[white pegasus]

stillwaters-saul was transformed on the road to Damascus-his wisdom came from God

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by white pegasus

stillwaters-saul was transformed on the road to Damascus-his wisdom came from God

All wisdom ultimately comes from God. Are you saying that Saul's wisdom came completely from God during that happening on the road to Damascus ?

[Still_Waters]

I sent a copy of my original post to a friend in Ohio who is a pastor and is affiliated with a seminary out there. After conferring with his colleagues, he wrote the following back to me.

RESPONSE: I think the Arabia view is the most likely. We know that he claims to have received his revelation from God and that he didn’t confer “with flesh and blood” we also know he is basically unaccounted for for several years after his conversion to Christ. I think his encounter of Damascus shook him and for several years he sought answers. From what I have read there is evidence he went to Arabia, and I feel this is where he went to try and figure things out

[white pegasus]

still waters yes ultimately all knowledge comes from God-however God is a triune God-God the Father-God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by white pegasus

still waters yes ultimately all knowledge comes from God-however God is a triune God-God the Father-God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

I loved the way that Amilius7 (I believe that was the user name) described the triune God.

1. Father - God Transcendent
2. Son - God with us
3. Holy Spirit - God within us (Immanence)

The Jews describe G-d as "The Transcendent One That is Immanent" with the immanence observed in varying degrees in others depending on the level of "purity of heart".

Knowledge can thus come from God in different ways.

By the way, what is your understanding of the "triune God" other than just saying the words?

[white pegasus]

stillwaters-well to be honest-its hard to say that I fully grasp and understand the trinity. And yes I fully agree with you in terms of just saying the words.

3 thoughts come to my mind when I think of the Trinity-

1 when I was in college and enrolled in psychology courses-I kinda related the trinity to a human level of understanding. . For example, just as there are 3 parts to a human being: the kid, the adult, and the parent-I looked at it in that way to attemot to understand. It then progressed to psychology terms-the id, the ego, and the super ego.

Then after college when I had hit rock bottom with my drinking-I started on the path of recovery by attending AA. I began to work the steps and remember asking my sponsor at the time because I had no experience with a direct contact with God-it seemed to me that He was always out there somewhere unattainable. I asked her how she understood the trinity-she explained it to me and it seemed to really fit for me at that time in my life...she said think of a band-you have the base player, you have the drummer, and you have the lead vocal.each on their own create a unique sound, a unique function, but when you put them all together they create the ulrimate sound.

Current in my life today this is how I understand the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ was God in human form walking the earth-the good shepgerd, He is our redeemetr-our brother-our Savior. Then you have the Holy Ghost-it is His job to teach us, to guide us. God is the Father-

Often times I think of when Jesus got baptized by John-after He came up out of the water, God spoke and said this is my beloved Son whom I am well pleased with-llisten to him, the the dove descended upon Jesus-the dove was the Holy Spirit.

Its when Jesus is baptized-that is the proof in the Bible of the triune God.

it is not easy to put into words the understanding of the trinity-but there you have it anyway-I know there is so much more to learn butthis is how I understand it for today

God set up sacrifices in the Old Testement to atone for sin. However, He sent His Son into this world to take on the sins of the whole world-the atoning sacritice-because life is in the blood-Christ was the sacrificial lamb. And bewcause of wha He accomplished on the cross-by the shedding of His blood-we are redeemed-it is through Him that we have a relationship with God the Father.

so still waters-there it is........my explanation of my understanding of the Trinity...........my elementary answer of my understanding and not me simply parroting the words.

10 years ago-I had hit another bottom in my life-and I remember pacing in my apartment-angry with God-I remember telling Him-okay you want all of me-you want every area of my life turned over to you-you got it-but I want to know who and what you are about............and thus still waters began a very long journey...........

see not only do I want to understand intellectually, but I also want to understand on a uch deeper level-the heart honesty.

I have been rejected by religion and church-because I am gay-so its been a long challenging road for me to really feel like I fit in a church because of my sexuality.

but that is a whole other topic.

so in the spirit of total honesty, let me be brief and to the point...........Yes I am a Christian.......and I have been on the receiving end of harsh, harsh judgements. so while people on this sub forum see me as a zealot or a pharissee-trust me when I tell you-I am not "one of those Christians"

I sit in church basements that are filled with cigarette smoke(well they use to be when there were smoking meetings and get to qitness miracles happen. I struggle everyday about my sexuality-because I do not understand why it is wrong to love another-I have suffered hurt from self righteous Christians

and when I come into this sub-forum entitled Christianity-it bothers me a great deal when people think they are their own god-or that they are god-or that they do not need a savior.

I am firm in what I believe still waters because of what I have experienced in my life-what the God-the only God of this world-has done for me in my life-anyone can memorize verses in the Bible and then spit them back out.

However, that is not me-man if I could sit down face-to-face with you and tell you about all my experiences with God-you would understand where I am coming from.

see here is my understanding so far in my life, "All are welcome at Gods table-ALL.

I believe the events in the Bible are real-not some metaphor-not some allegories-

and let me tell you if I had to debate someone about the Bible-I do not think I would do so well-there is so much I desire to learn.

let me just close this too lengthy answer to your question of if I have an understanding of the trinity or am I just parroting the phrase-while my understanding maybe limited-infantile, etc-I am no parrot I am no saint.

so whether you believe me or not-it doesn't matter-because what you think of me is none of my business-

yes I love God-yes I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for everyones sins so that we may be reconciled to God-I believe in the Holy Spirit.

our mission here on earth is to try and love as Christ loved. but guess what I fail-and I fail miserably at it-I sin-I lose my temper-,,,, and I mess up a lot


so yeah these our my thoughts, my beliefs, my understandings. I hope I have answered your question-to your satisifaction of your understanding of the trinity.

if I have not measured up to your understanding of the trinity-go talk to God about it-I never again will engage in answering a question like that again. thank you and have a good night.

ps-I will refrain from engaging in any type of debate with you-its not my responsibility to prove to you anything-take that up with your god

[sky]

Originally Posted by white pegasus

stillwaters-well to be honest-its hard to say that I fully grasp and understand the trinity. And yes I fully agree with you in terms of just saying the words.

3 thoughts come to my mind when I think of the Trinity-

1 when I was in college and enrolled in psychology courses-I kinda related the trinity to a human level of understanding. . For example, just as there are 3 parts to a human being: the kid, the adult, and the parent-I looked at it in that way to attemot to understand. It then progressed to psychology terms-the id, the ego, and the super ego.

Then after college when I had hit rock bottom with my drinking-I started on the path of recovery by attending AA. I began to work the steps and remember asking my sponsor at the time because I had no experience with a direct contact with God-it seemed to me that He was always out there somewhere unattainable. I asked her how she understood the trinity-she explained it to me and it seemed to really fit for me at that time in my life...she said think of a band-you have the base player, you have the drummer, and you have the lead vocal.each on their own create a unique sound, a unique function, but when you put them all together they create the ulrimate sound.

Current in my life today this is how I understand the Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.

Jesus Christ was God in human form walking the earth-the good shepgerd, He is our redeemetr-our brother-our Savior. Then you have the Holy Ghost-it is His job to teach us, to guide us. God is the Father-

Often times I think of when Jesus got baptized by John-after He came up out of the water, God spoke and said this is my beloved Son whom I am well pleased with-llisten to him, the the dove descended upon Jesus-the dove was the Holy Spirit.

Its when Jesus is baptized-that is the proof in the Bible of the triune God.

it is not easy to put into words the understanding of the trinity-but there you have it anyway-I know there is so much more to learn butthis is how I understand it for today

God set up sacrifices in the Old Testement to atone for sin. However, He sent His Son into this world to take on the sins of the whole world-the atoning sacritice-because life is in the blood-Christ was the sacrificial lamb. And bewcause of wha He accomplished on the cross-by the shedding of His blood-we are redeemed-it is through Him that we have a relationship with God the Father.

so still waters-there it is........my explanation of my understanding of the Trinity...........my elementary answer of my understanding and not me simply parroting the words.

10 years ago-I had hit another bottom in my life-and I remember pacing in my apartment-angry with God-I remember telling Him-okay you want all of me-you want every area of my life turned over to you-you got it-but I want to know who and what you are about............and thus still waters began a very long journey...........

see not only do I want to understand intellectually, but I also want to understand on a uch deeper level-the heart honesty.

I have been rejected by religion and church-because I am gay-so its been a long challenging road for me to really feel like I fit in a church because of my sexuality.

but that is a whole other topic.

so in the spirit of total honesty, let me be brief and to the point...........Yes I am a Christian.......and I have been on the receiving end of harsh, harsh judgements. so while people on this sub forum see me as a zealot or a pharissee-trust me when I tell you-I am not "one of those Christians"

I sit in church basements that are filled with cigarette smoke(well they use to be when there were smoking meetings and get to qitness miracles happen. I struggle everyday about my sexuality-because I do not understand why it is wrong to love another-I have suffered hurt from self righteous Christians

and when I come into this sub-forum entitled Christianity-it bothers me a great deal when people think they are their own god-or that they are god-or that they do not need a savior.

I am firm in what I believe still waters because of what I have experienced in my life-what the God-the only God of this world-has done for me in my life-anyone can memorize verses in the Bible and then spit them back out.

However, that is not me-man if I could sit down face-to-face with you and tell you about all my experiences with God-you would understand where I am coming from.

see here is my understanding so far in my life, "All are welcome at Gods table-ALL.

I believe the events in the Bible are real-not some metaphor-not some allegories-

and let me tell you if I had to debate someone about the Bible-I do not think I would do so well-there is so much I desire to learn.

let me just close this too lengthy answer to your question of if I have an understanding of the trinity or am I just parroting the phrase-while my understanding maybe limited-infantile, etc-I am no parrot I am no saint.

so whether you believe me or not-it doesn't matter-because what you think of me is none of my business-

yes I love God-yes I believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for everyones sins so that we may be reconciled to God-I believe in the Holy Spirit.

our mission here on earth is to try and love as Christ loved. but guess what I fail-and I fail miserably at it-I sin-I lose my temper-,,,, and I mess up a lot


so yeah these our my thoughts, my beliefs, my understandings. I hope I have answered your question-to your satisifaction of your understanding of the trinity.

if I have not measured up to your understanding of the trinity-go talk to God about it-I never again will engage in answering a question like that again. thank you and have a good night.

ps-I will refrain from engaging in any type of debate with you-its not my responsibility to prove to you anything-take that up with your god

Humans are also Triune