Integral/Holistic view & approach to schizophrenia

[Being]

Originally Posted by Gem

In his conclusions, the researcher described how behaving in this slightly altered way was highly distressing for both him as the researcher and the individual he interacted with. It demonstrated that the anxiety surrounding madness concerns distressing the 'sane' just as much as it does the real lived distress of those who behave abnormally - or in other words, the one behaving abnormally caused abnormal behaviour in others, and hence is perceived as disruptive to normalcy, and in turn, the social order.

i think that is a very good point Gem.

It appears to me that it is in part the levels of psychological / emotional disturbance & distress to self / others that results in the standard response & treatment, that primarily consists of denial, control & suppression of the individual, with often violent actions towards the effected individual (psychological / emotional / physical) & usually powerful psychoactive drugs, that in essence are brain disabling treatments. Anything to sculpt the individual back to 'normality' & conformity, without getting into what normality is?

The primary fear seems to be towards the individual afflicted, & the most violence perpetrated against the suffering individual by this society / system, especially concerning what comes under the psychoses.

The main problem here imo is Not the 'mad', it's this society / system, & it's lack of understanding, care & proper treatment of people having these experiences.

[Being]

Originally Posted by Scommstech

I do sympathise with you. Of all the forums and post that I have read (not that many actually)yours are the most logical and constructive I've seen. I find it hard to imagine you with any "mental" problems.

Thank you. Some of the most logical, insightful, intelligent & interesting people i have come across in my journey through life have been in the 'mental health system / community /areas'. Not to say that all 'madness', & what comes under mental health is the same, as it isn't. Anyone can suffer with forms of psychological & emotional distress, regardless of their intelligence levels.

For many years, some 12 years since the last major psychotic episode, it's Not felt primarily like a problem within my brain / thinking, Not to say that in part it isn't, But by far the bigger issue for me has been what i feel on a far deeper / core emotional level, which i feel very physically within my body, especially the heart area. & what i have perceived as difficulties, & the way that i have been / am effected by it all, within my overall life circumstances, & ways this society / civilisation is in general.

From what I can gather many people who suffer this way have dabbled in areas best left alone. But this in itself gives a clue as to some cause and effect. If "mental" activity can cause something then mental activity can undo it.

i think that there are different weightings & combinations within different cases of biological, psychological, sociological & spiritual / transpersonal areas implicated. Mind, body, soul, spirit & environment is all effected, & i feel that it all needs to be seen & understood within such a whole person sense.

After reading Quantum's descriptions of how the brain functions and how the "wiring" connect and disconnect due to thought activity, I can only presume that many schizophrenics will have similar wiring problems irrespective of the root cause.

i certainly don't deny various potential biological processes within aetiology & prognosis. i am Not sure if that is the primary issue in all cases? Different cases are likely different & that many 'things' come under what is classified under the psychoses / schizophrenia. Part of the problem is that it's Not known. There are a myriad of endless theories & writings on what comes under the psychoses, from biological, psychological, sociological & spiritual / transpersonal perspectives (& combinations of those areas).

From a broader view than the materialist / mind is brain paradigm, imo a lot is psychogenic. This view has lost a lot of favour with current mainstream biomedical psychiatry / society.

It's the nature & content of some of my experiences, especially the first episode that i find impossible to fully shift & resolve, as to me it was in ways true, Not just that is was true from the pov of it was what i actually experienced, But that i see in essence some kind of visionary truth to it all. & so i can't & haven't been able to forget or reprogram it all, nor come to a deeper resolution of it all. At best there is more of an acceptance & a 'playing of the Game'. i also see a lot of the nature of my experiences as having been 'beyond the mind', & so i don't really see any answer or solution to it all at a purely cognitive / mind / intellectual level.

As with a major area of psychiatry & psychology; the phenomenological, how do others really understand the subjective experience of others? All people really have to go on is the observed presenting speech & behaviour, & then making assumptions / conclusions based upon their own knowledge & perceptions. i think that in many ways this is a major part of the problems / issues within all this area.

[Being]

i am & always have been of the opinion that there are far far better, far more humane, viable & effective ways of working with people in psychosis; extreme psychological / emotional distress / behaviour / non ordinary / extreme states of consciousness, as well as all those suffering other psychological / emotional malady. i Never have & don't agree with the standard treatment that millions of people have & go through, i think it is very backwards, barbaric, ignorant & inhumane.

How to change the current society / system to a genuinely comprehensive, caring, humane, compassionate & enlightened understanding & approach to mental health i have No idea? The treatment of the 'mad' has largely always pretty much been a steaming pile of dung, right through the burning times to 'modern' psychiatry. i suppose as with so much else that is the way it all is.

[Scommstech]

Originally Posted by Being

i am & always have been of the opinion that there are far far better, far more humane, viable & effective ways of working with people in psychosis; extreme psychological / emotional distress / behaviour / non ordinary / extreme states of consciousness, as well as all those suffering other psychological / emotional malady. i Never have & don't agree with the standard treatment that millions of people have & go through, i think it is very backwards, barbaric, ignorant & inhumane.

How to change the current society / system to a genuinely comprehensive, caring, humane, compassionate & enlightened understanding & approach to mental health i have No idea? The treatment of the 'mad' has largely always pretty much been a steaming pile of dung, right through the burning times to 'modern' psychiatry. i suppose as with so much else that is the way it all is.

I quite agree. Maybe the answer is to not to be so dependant on current medicine if it is not providing the desired result. Traditional medicine has always taken years to change even though there are forward thinkers in its ranks. If you do any reading consider having a look at "The Field" by Lynne McTaggart. The author has documented many of the experiments that the Quantum people are involved in. The physicists have not actually "joined " up the dots and seem to treat each find as an isolated phenomena, but areas being investigated all seem to have an overlap involving the power of the mind. Many of the phenomena that I came across with spiritualism have been explained to me by events in the book.
It really does show the power of the mind, and once one replaces fear with knowledge a whole different perspective appears.
By the way I read your last post in a bit of a hurry but yes occupying your mind with less demanding ways is a step in the right direction. My son years ago had some issues and a school psychiatrist advised to just get him to kick a football around to burn off his frustrations. We can at times think too much.
Regards
Harry

[Gem]

Originally Posted by Being

i am & always have been of the opinion that there are far far better, far more humane, viable & effective ways of working with people in psychosis; extreme psychological / emotional distress / behaviour / non ordinary / extreme states of consciousness, as well as all those suffering other psychological / emotional malady. i Never have & don't agree with the standard treatment that millions of people have & go through, i think it is very backwards, barbaric, ignorant & inhumane.

How to change the current society / system to a genuinely comprehensive, caring, humane, compassionate & enlightened understanding & approach to mental health i have No idea? The treatment of the 'mad' has largely always pretty much been a steaming pile of dung, right through the burning times to 'modern' psychiatry. i suppose as with so much else that is the way it all is.

After reading much, studying the area of mental health from childhood development to mental illness, and taking some time to do further reading into the philosophical underpinnings, I am of the view that very deep assumptions of a material rational world lead to the fundamental flaw in mental health ideology - which is to rationalise madness. Locate it somewhere, and identify its cause, categorise it into knowable items. What is comes down to in very basic terms is, there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.

[Being]

Originally Posted by Scommstech

I quite agree. Maybe the answer is to not to be so dependant on current medicine if it is not providing the desired result.

It's Not that simple, there are complexities to the history, diagnosis, condition, medication & circumstances. i stopped all medication 5 times. It kept leading back to major psychotic episodes & hospitalisations.

The medication does take the edge off things & give me a degree of stability & ability to live independently. If i stop the medication, however i try, it always ends up in severe resurfacing of very severe psychosis. If there was proper & appropriate understanding, help & support to possibly resolve more the underlying condition, proper support in med reduction / withdrawal, & proper ongoing support, then maybe things could have / would be different? But there hasn't been / isn't any of that.

In ways it seems like an endless catch 22 / double bind with it all. i can't stop the medication & go psychotic, as the response will be exactly what it was previously.

[Being]

Originally Posted by Gem

After reading much, studying the area of mental health from childhood development to mental illness, and taking some time to do further reading into the philosophical underpinnings, I am of the view that very deep assumptions of a material rational world lead to the fundamental flaw in mental health ideology - which is to rationalise madness. Locate it somewhere, and identify its cause, categorise it into knowable items. What is comes down to in very basic terms is, there is a difference between knowledge and wisdom.

Yea, i pretty much agree. The whole mental health system / psychiatry / treatment is largely wrong from the get go.

[Being]

On aggregate i would say & agree that everyone could be far better helped. 20% of the UK & 40% of the USA are diagnosed & on psychiatric drugs - half of all cases are dual diagnosis (addiction & mental illness). We need implementation of comprehensive alternatives. i don't think it will happen, for multiple reasons. It would need a fundamental meta-paradigm shift within society & the system.

The anti-psychiatry arguments / polemics simply don't work & don't hold up. Some arguments imo do work, But society / the system / establishment doesn't get it, & such alternatives won't be introduced under the current economic, political & scientific / biomedical paradigm.

The facts as well are that i feel it is all so complex & nuanced. i don't think that various degrees of biological weightings can be denied. It can't be an either / or argument. Even under a more ideal system, some people are & will be genuinely helped with a minimal & wise use of psycho-pharmacology, & statistically that shows up where comprehensive alternatives have been / are used.

Some 3% of people, usually what comes under severe schizophrenia, classic manic depression, & clinical depression, do need genuinely comprehensive approaches from day one. A percentage of them are likely to need longer term medical help / support, & it's silly to deny all that. i don't think that everything within mental health can be categorised the 'same'.

To my understanding what the core problem boils down to within mental health is the idealogical argument between the current dominant philosophical monism of materialism & alternative idealism, with various biological, psychological, sociological, & spiritual / transpersonal flavours & polemics.

There is to my understanding a solution to all these polemics.

A genuinely integral / holistic / non-dual model & approach.

Sadly i think that this civilisation will have collapsed before the majority of humanity; this society / system arrives at such a conclusion & a working model, let alone implements it all.

The facts also can't be denied that it is the system itself, primarily the economics, but also the politics & exoteric religions / fixed ideologies, that directly cause most of the problems. The only solution to that is fundamental systemic change & radical alternates. Again, it's Not that such alternatives don't exist, they do, it's that the vast majority of society / the system can't comprehend them, let alone think of implementation.

There will Never be a proper approach to the entire area of mental health under the current society / system & dominant paradigms, it's impossible. A minority can 'moan & complain' all that they want to, it's Not going to change anything.

The collective lies of humanity & civilisation itself are what are under question. You also have to ask why the vast majority of people have & do willing accept the ways that everything is? The vast majority of psychiatry isn't forced, most people want diagnoses & drugs, & the current paradigm is largely fully supported by the majority of society, system & media.

[Being]

Putting to Rest the Myth of the Heroic Self

i thought that this was a very good little article about the personal battles with mental illness regarding spirituality.

A friend of the late Michael Stone reflects on the teacher’s struggle with mental illness.

By Matthew GindinJul 25, 2017

https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/putt...h-heroic-self/

[Being]

i think that part of the problem is that 'everyone' is now 'mentally ill', when in reality what accounts for very severe presentations of mental illness i think are very rare. That doesn't deny anyone's suffering or difficulties. But i don't think that everything can be classed as the same 'thing'.

i'd like to know how 'we' transition' from the current society / culture / system & general standard of mental health treatment to one that is genuinely civilised, humane & employs comprehensive, understanding & appropriate help / support for people in distress?

Really all i've seen / see is an endless polemical argument of different agendas, opinions, & different perspectives & understandings. i don't think that anyone is going to with the anti / pro psychiatry polemic.

Surely there needs to be some unified understanding & movement to all this area, as with other areas? But there isn't, society, humanity & civilisation seems to be becoming more & more fractured, fragmented & divided.

The way i see it is that 'everything' has a certain validity.

Psychological / emotional distress, feeling bad & all the experiences that come under mental health are real. Treating people well or badly effects their mental health. Parenting, family, wider society, trauma & life experience effects mental health. Everything in one way or another effects mental health. Everything involved within & what makes up the individual can be effected, by potentially anything / everything.

Depending on World view / bias / belief systems, people lean towards a whole plethora of understandings & explanations to it all. From biological, sociological, psychological & spiritual understandings & perspectives, to various degrees of anti / critical / pro psychiatry flavours.

The issue to me that people can be / are what can be considered to be mentally ill in various ways & forms, & with aetiology / prognosis across every range - mind, body, soul, spirit & environment. That all areas of biology, psychology, sociology & spirituality has various degrees of meaning & validity.

But what we have in current society is an endless polemical argument around it all with people arguing & taking various positions on those ranges.

The only way that i see of resolving it all is genuinely integrating everything, taking a whole person / integral / holistic / systemic view.

Looking primarily at creating a genuinely healthy society / environment on wider & personal levels, as well as treating people in the best ways possible.

Getting to that ideal is mediated by economics, politics, religions, society & culture in general, the entire battle over the philosophical monism of World views between materialism & idealism (which is imo a false duality) - interesting that a lot of the dynamics within certain anti / pro psychiatry arguments i think involve in various ways that idealogical battle.

There there is the whole issue within everyone, professionals, the general public, etc, of ignorance, fear, general stigma & discrimination & a lot of conflict & divisions about all the ways that we should understand & treat mental health & those who come under the classifications of suffering mental health difficulties.

Within a sick society everyone is sick. i read that research that now says 3 quarters of the country suffer some form of mental illness & only 13% report good psychological / emotional health (UK Study). Maybe in one sense that is correct, But then surely it's primarily a systemic / wider social issue, if so many people are unhappy & feeling bad. It's complex, as it's people that make up society / culture. It's both the system & humanity - humanity is the system.

It's all a very strange thing.

& again, within every area of life & society i think that there are far far better ways of doing everything. That's what i don't really get, as to why so many people don't appear to want to live in a far better World & to resolve all these difficulties & areas, at least work towards something a lot better. But we're back to the problem that 'no one' agrees. That in itself may cause eventual civilisation collapse.

Certain areas of integral / systems theory i feel also make some sense & go some way to explaining some of what is going on. People 'simply' are very different 'levels / stages' of development, & conscious awareness within all areas.

stages of psychological/philosophical development

The other kind, psychological and philosophical in nature can be briefly summarized using Ken Wilber's Integral terminology. This work also corresponds to notable theologian Dr. James Fowler, from Emory University, who recently passed on.

■1. Archaic: No distinction between self and other. 1st person.

■2. Magic Tribal: Impulsive, superstitious, self/other still blurred

■3. Magic-Mythic: PowerGods, power drives, hunger, give me

■4. Mythic-Traditional: Ethnocentric, absolute beliefs, traditional, fundamentalist

■5. Rational Modern: World-centric, Reason, Logic, Universal truths, empiricism, achievement, financial success

■6. Pluralistic Postmodern: Sees universe, self, and other, and relflects on the nature of having perspective, Relativism, Human Rights, Post-colonial theory, Roland Barthes, no universal truth

■7. Integral: Everything is connected. All previous stages are necessary building-blocks. Understands the stages themselves and favors wholism, unity, personal development, and is aware of the spiritual nature of things as well as the physical and psychological.