No God

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by running

pranayama (breathing exercises). and meditation. cant go wrong imo

I learned on my own (trial and error) on how to see my own breath in which I got to see my aura and other 'things' during meditation. One thing that amazed me is that as I watched others meditate, I could see spirit shapes come and go around other people.

A couple of times I did see some chakras............

[Gem]

[quote=jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Gem

The satipathana is the discourse on mindfulness, also called vipashna, also called insight meditation.





I said its a fact one has insight into. In the texts they call it 'thorough understanding of impermanence' and remark on that insight being the founding principle of equanimity. Hence-why when it is said that meditation is awareness and equanimity, it means "ardent awareness with the thorough understanding of impermanance, free form craving and aversion toward the world". On bliss it is remarked:


And what, monks, is right concentration? Here monks, a monk, detached from craving, detached from unwholesome mental states, enters into the first absorption, born of detachment, accompanied by initial and sustained application of the mind and filled with rapture and bliss and he dwells therein. With the subsiding of initial and sustained application of the mind and gaining inner tranquillity and oneness of mind he enters into the second absorption, born of concentration, free from initial and sustained application of the mind, filled with rapture and bliss and he dwells therein. After the fading away of rapture he dwells in equanimity, aware with constant thorough understanding of impermanence, and he experiences in his body the bliss of which the noble ones say: "That bliss is experienced by one with equanimity and awareness." Thus he enters the third absorption and dwells therein. After the eradication of pleasure and pain and with joy and grief having previously passed away, he enters into a state beyond pleasure and pain, the fourth absorption, that is totally purified by equanimity and awareness and he dwells therein. This, monks, is called Right Concentration.


The commentary suggests:


Pīti [rapture] is difficult to translate into English. It is often translated as: "joy," "delight," "bliss" or "thrill." Each of these words conveys at least partially the meaning of mental and physical pleasantness. For pīti to become a factor of enlightenment it must be experienced in its true nature as ephemeral, arising and passing away. Only then can the meditator avoid the danger of becoming attached to the pleasantness of this stage.





But is there the insight into how the mind is upset by ones own reactivity?




We have already discussed that you don’t practice satipathana meditation.
Will is Kamma.

I don't recall that discussion, but I studied meditation according the satipatthana (so called mindfulness, vipashna or insight meditation) in the formal setting...

What I quoted is very much Buddhism and from a highly respected monk. No reason to disparage someone because you don’t understand it.

I said I liked the essay...

Meditation leads to being, being leads to awakening.





Yet according to you nothing changes or works

I said everything changes, and also outlined the process of how meditation works.

I am not sure why you are advocating any means when you don’t believe in them or say they work.

There is a disparity between what I say and what you hear.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by ImthatIm

This is all well and good, I really just wanted to breathe like the OP stated.
Which is the only reason I chose to participate in this thread.
All the complexities are a bit to much like a maze for me.

I just copied and pasted some bits from the web that I thought were in line
with the OP. I am really not knowledgeable enough on Buddhism and it's intricacies
to have a in depth discussion or recognize what is or isn't legit Buddhism.

I appreciated the simplicity and openness of the OP and just hoped to add to it's simplicity.

Like stepping out of a building and into a courtyard garden and instantly you breathe deep and
exhale the most relaxing exhale and release and the garden embraces you into the fold naturally.
No religion, no right or wrong just being and blending with all beauty that fills the senses.
If that is in Buddhism then count me in.

Totally nailed it.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sky123

' Anapana sati, the meditation on in-and-out breathing, is the first subject of meditation expounded by the Buddha in the Maha-satipatthana Sutta, the Great Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness. The Buddha laid special stress on this meditation, for it is the gateway to enlightenment and Nibbana adopted by all the Buddhas of the past as the very basis for their attainment of Buddhahood. When the Blessed One sat at the foot of the Bodhi Tree and resolved not to rise until he had reached enlightenment, he took up anapana sati as his subject of meditation. On the basis of this, he attained the four jhanas, recollected his previous lives, fathomed the nature of samsara, aroused the succession of great insight knowledges, and at dawn, while 100,000 world systems trembled, he attained the limitless wisdom of a Fully Enlightened Buddha.'


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/...mma/bl115.html

Just for the sake of clarification mindfulness as described in the anapanasati and the satipatthana suttas is described in the context of sensation (breathing is a sensation) the whole body and the mind and contents.


This is obvious in the satipatthana because it defines the four mindful objects emphatically as body, sensation, mind and mental contents.


Even though anapanasati means breath awareness, and we call the observation of the breath 'anapanasati', the sutta itself references all the mindful objects above defined...


Such as:



"Breathing in feel the whole body" - and there are scholars who say 'the whole body' means the whole (body of the) breath, that is, the entire duration of the in breath and out breath. Other scholars say that's silly, and 'feel the whole body' just means feeling the whole body. Since the latter is affirmed emphatically in a satipatthana, I don't see how the former is a reasonable interpretation. However, one should feel the entire duration of breath, so the former interpretation is still a practical one, and the Buddhist sense of the word, 'right'.


"Breathing in sensitive to mind" - this is where we can't say 'mind' means 'the whole mind of the breath', so it just means what it says. I quote "He who sees with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who watches carefully with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world."

Hence, anapanasati means breath awareness, but in practice you'll find it pertains to mind/body more generally, just as the sutta implies.

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Welcome back.

You have been gone for a month or so and your first post is to attack me again.

Funny many here tell me I am wrong for studying and here you are telling me I need too.

Nothing about what I said was wrong or how it was wrong just an attack.

Insight meditation is about examining. To examine one has to think.

The word 'examining' is used to mean watch closely.

Mindfulness is observing, using the mind and what arises as a form of concentration. One is observing and trying not to get lost in thoughts.

There is a reason why they separate insight and mindfulness. Why there are two terms, it is because they are two distinct practices.

Mindfulness and insight meditation are the same thing, or you could say insight is the result of mindfulness.

Hope that helps.

"Insight Meditation, known as Vipassana in the Theravada Buddhist tradition engages in the practice of ethics, mindfulness, depths of meditation, opening of the heart and wisdom teachings." (https://www.insightmeditationaustralia.org/)


"Buddhist Insight Meditation, also known as Vipassana Meditation, which is based on the teachings of the Buddha contained within the Discourse on the Establishment of Mindfulness (Satipatthana Sutta)."(https://buddhistlibrary.org.au/event...tation-course/)


"Insight meditation, or Vipassana, is one of the central teachings of the Buddha. It has continued as a living practice for 2500 years. At the heart of insight meditation is the practice of mindfulness, the cultivation of clear, stable and non-judgmental awareness."(https://www.insightmeditationcenter....tion-homework/)


Now I am involved in the argument so prepare for your defeat!!!

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by running

pranayama (breathing exercises). and meditation. cant go wrong imo

I'm guessing pranayama means different things to different people.
I googled it and got these...

Pranayama (prana = energy + yama = control)
the goal being to withdraw ones senses from the outside world

https://www.ananda.org/yogapedia/pranayama/

and...

Prāṇāyāma is the practice of breath control in yoga. In modern yoga as exercise, it consists of synchronising the breath with movements between asanas, but is also a distinct breathing exercise on its own, usually practised after asanas. In texts like the Bhagavad Gita and the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, and later in Hatha yoga texts, it meant the complete cessation of breathing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama

So it was in the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and part of Hatha Yoga...

Then I googled it and Buddhism and got this:

According to the Pali Buddhist Canon, the Buddha prior to his enlightenment practiced a meditative technique which involved pressing the palate with the tongue and forcibly attempting to restrain the breath. This is described as both extremely painful and not conducive to enlightenment.[21] In some Buddhist teachings or metaphors, breathing is said to stop with the fourth jhana, though this is a side-effect of the technique and does not come about as the result of purposeful effort.[22]

The Buddha did incorporate moderate modulation of the length of breath as part of the preliminary tetrad in the Anapanasati Sutta. Its use there is preparation for concentration. According to commentarial literature, this is appropriate for beginners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama

The wiki page said there are risks...

According to at least one study, pranayama was the yoga practice leading to most injuries, with four injuries in a study of 76 practitioners. There have been limited reports of adverse effects including haematoma and pneumothorax

A pneumothorax is an abnormal collection of air in the pleural space between the lung and the chest wall.[3] Symptoms typically include sudden onset of sharp, one-sided chest pain and shortness of breath.

Some people must really over do controlling the breath to cause an injury.
But then some posts here seem to say they just watch it and don't control it even though in the Gita it is said to be about controlling the breath.

I guess everyone interprets what it is and if they have any interest in it, does it in their own way or follows their own authority on what it is or how it is done.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I'm guessing pranayama means different things to different people.
I googled it and got these...



and...

Prāṇāyāma is the practice of breath control in yoga. In modern yoga as exercise, it consists of synchronising the breath with movements between asanas, but is also a distinct breathing exercise on its own, usually practised after asanas. In texts like the Bhagavad Gita and the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, and later in Hatha yoga texts, it meant the complete cessation of breathing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama

So it was in the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and part of Hatha Yoga...

Then I googled it and Buddhism and got this:

According to the Pali Buddhist Canon, the Buddha prior to his enlightenment practiced a meditative technique which involved pressing the palate with the tongue and forcibly attempting to restrain the breath. This is described as both extremely painful and not conducive to enlightenment.[21] In some Buddhist teachings or metaphors, breathing is said to stop with the fourth jhana, though this is a side-effect of the technique and does not come about as the result of purposeful effort.[22]

The Buddha did incorporate moderate modulation of the length of breath as part of the preliminary tetrad in the Anapanasati Sutta. Its use there is preparation for concentration. According to commentarial literature, this is appropriate for beginners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama

The wiki page said there are risks...



A pneumothorax is an abnormal collection of air in the pleural space between the lung and the chest wall.[3] Symptoms typically include sudden onset of sharp, one-sided chest pain and shortness of breath.

Some people must really over do controlling the breath to cause an injury.
But then some posts here seem to say they just watch it and don't control it even though in the Gita it is said to be about controlling the breath.

I guess everyone interprets what it is and if they have any interest in it, does it in their own way or follows their own authority on what it is or how it is done.

' According to the Pali Buddhist Canon, the Buddha prior to his enlightenment practiced a meditative technique which involved pressing the palate with the tongue and forcibly attempting to restrain the breath. This is described as both extremely painful and not conducive to enlightenment '





' For six years Gautama struggled and tortured his body while his five friends supported and looked after him.

"I will carry austerity to the uttermost," thought Gautama. "This is the way to acquire wisdom." He practised fasting, which was thought to be one of the best ways to acquire wisdom. He lived on a grain of rice a day, and later, nothing at all. His body became so thin that his legs were like bamboo sticks, his backbone was like a rope, his chest was like an incomplete roof of a house, his eyes sank right inside, like stones in a deep well. His skin lost its golden colour and became black. In fact, he looked like a living skeleton — all bones without any flesh! He suffered terrible pain and hunger, yet continued to meditate.

Another way of torturing his body was to hold his breath for a long time until he felt violent pains in his ears, head and whole body. He would then fall senseless to the ground.

For six long years he did these practices and in spite of the great pain and suffering he did not find wisdom or the answers to his questions. He finally decided, "These austerities are not the way to enlightenment." He went begging through the village for food to build up his body. '


According to Scriptures he did live a very austere lifestyle until he realized it was not productive.



http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/...dha/14lbud.htm

[running]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I'm guessing pranayama means different things to different people.
I googled it and got these...



and...

Prāṇāyāma is the practice of breath control in yoga. In modern yoga as exercise, it consists of synchronising the breath with movements between asanas, but is also a distinct breathing exercise on its own, usually practised after asanas. In texts like the Bhagavad Gita and the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, and later in Hatha yoga texts, it meant the complete cessation of breathing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama

So it was in the Hindu Bhagavad-Gita and part of Hatha Yoga...

Then I googled it and Buddhism and got this:

According to the Pali Buddhist Canon, the Buddha prior to his enlightenment practiced a meditative technique which involved pressing the palate with the tongue and forcibly attempting to restrain the breath. This is described as both extremely painful and not conducive to enlightenment.[21] In some Buddhist teachings or metaphors, breathing is said to stop with the fourth jhana, though this is a side-effect of the technique and does not come about as the result of purposeful effort.[22]

The Buddha did incorporate moderate modulation of the length of breath as part of the preliminary tetrad in the Anapanasati Sutta. Its use there is preparation for concentration. According to commentarial literature, this is appropriate for beginners.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama

The wiki page said there are risks...



A pneumothorax is an abnormal collection of air in the pleural space between the lung and the chest wall.[3] Symptoms typically include sudden onset of sharp, one-sided chest pain and shortness of breath.

Some people must really over do controlling the breath to cause an injury.
But then some posts here seem to say they just watch it and don't control it even though in the Gita it is said to be about controlling the breath.

I guess everyone interprets what it is and if they have any interest in it, does it in their own way or follows their own authority on what it is or how it is done.

breathing exercises can open things up. meditation open things up. when you do both it can have a synergistic effect. i mix pranayama with exercise which works great for me. i also often mix meditation with harmonics which gives it more of a kick. more current. its all about using the current and silence to more and more depth. subtler and subtler. all of this is done by feeling whats going on and making adjustments for greater results.

i can't speak to what works ideally for someone else. i can feel everything that goes on so i test and tune to what gets the most done per time spent. but if somebody cant feel these things there are many pranayma breathing techniques by various masters and gurus. i first heard and was shown by a guru. i played with it and its evolved into what i do today.

and its probably a good idea not to go all out with pranayama or even meditation right away. but to work into it. cause it could surface a great deal and its good to know how much one can deal with at a time.

i just do a basic breath out hard through my nose. sucking my stomach in to blow out. while im running. it makes the stomach real strong which keeps me from having back problems from driving 11 hrs a day. after running. walking back. i do it in reverse. breathing in deep and hard. letting out normal. i always use my nose. as i can feel it hit my third eye and crown and down that way. where as through the mouth is more throat down. but thats just me.

an example.
the iceman's breathing practice.
https://youtu.be/nzCaZQqAs9I




.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by janielee

That wasn’t my first post, and your indignation may be because you don’t like inaccuracies pointed out. For example, no, my first post after a month was not to attack you, but anyone who is loose on facts might think that’s a proclamation to make. Read the post above. Facts matter.

As to studying, yeah I’m not a fan of theory only, but when people misrepresent the most basic of theories it seems to call for attention.

Finally Arhats are well defined - telling us what they are incapable of doing is like a trainee gymnast telling everyone else a triple somersault is a myth and the Olympic winner is a stone cold loser

So people can learn from real Buddhist resources or teachers if they want facts. Carry on

You didn't point out any inaccuracies. You just said I was wrong. You never point out inaccuracies. You just tell others they are wrong.

Lastly, please refer to Chapter X in the Lankavatara Sutra.

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by running

within your idea of what and how one is to be as a person, what you think has some validity. in becoming able to open to the expereince of bliss and silence. the problem is it isn't based upon bliss and silence but from the ideas built up in your mind.

you just as anyone else has the right to come up with a behavioral system behaving as a box of limitations to what is included, orr a must have i should say, to become in the experience of the divine. so its not in my interest to make a long debate about it.

fears, anxietys, and the rest experinced during the awakening process has mostly to do with clearing of stuck emotions built up from difficult experinces throughout the span of many lifetimes.

Running, hello sorry I was off several days due to workload!!!

Again, like so much of what you say, I could say it is probably partially true or universal only at the highest level, where all individual detail and experience is lost or glossed over.
But without drilling down a bit, it just isn't that meaningful or helpful to me and I can't be sure we're really on the same page. We may not be, and that's totally ok as well, but I don't even know enough to hazard a guess without getting into a smidge more detail.

That's totally ok too, because that's exactly my point -- we always need a bit of back and forth -- that is the core of the human experience, engaging with ourselves AND others
But it means folks have to discuss and talk and get to know one another a bit. Then, from the point of a more fleshed-out individuality, one to the other, we can agree and disagree AND agree to disagree.
For me, that process of fleshing it out just a bit is really as important if not more important than anything else.

So...back to what you said. I would say that it is down to healing things from past lives. But it's not about dumping your karmic load into the bin of all you've ever done & been but didn't care for. And it's not about wiping off the dirty bits and throwing out the cleaning rags (LOL). And it's not a one-and-done or here-and-there approach, even if you're living in the bliss.

As, even from a blissful centred experience, your karma is yours to own and heal and make amends with other souls in your life, from this life and from others past. It's not just you being good with you, even blissfully so...that is an important start but it's not the journey. It's more readying for the trip. Reaching out and making amends, both where you've fallen short and where others have failed or betrayed you badly, either one...and often repeatedly and as needed. It's not about accomplishing anything per se -- and you may not have anything tangible to show for it (if others are not yet willing or able to meet you in reconciliation), but it's what your spirit requires of you ultimately. It's what Love requires and Love is what we are.

Making amends in other ways counts too, like paying it forward and being and doing authentic love day-to-day towards fam, friends, and strangers. But...your own amends fest awaits as does everyone's. And that will require your committed and ongoing presence, your conscious choices and your conscious effort and calm, committed, enduring, and focused attention to it, just as anything truly challenging, worth, and necessary does.

Peace & blessings
7L