Zen Anybody

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

It's throwing a wrench into how you conceptualized it there, but to me, "examining" thoughts and emotions is just abstracted same thing... more thinking. More identifying with thought. It's just we conceptualize these thoughts (the examining ones) to be superior or more "me" than the ones we are examining. It's just a fancier method of being wholly focused in mind or thought as self. To me, "dissociation" is the higher path. That word, dissociation, has a lot of contexts it is used in which are negative for sure, so I'd not use it for this subject but it fits using the basic definition of it.

As I had said - it is a long time ago I did mindfulness practice.

This meditation joke which Gem has in his signature sort of points to it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQp6q49Is3s

The effect of mindfulness is the same as when living in a dense rainforest. Your brainwaves slow down to low alpha.

So you ….. w-a-a-a-a-a-c-c-c-c-c-h-h-h-h-h …. the … b-b-b-b-b-u-u-u-u-u-t-t-t-t-t-e-e-e-e-e-r-r-r-r-r-f-f-f-f-f-l-l-l-l-l-y-y-y-y-y …. f-f-f-f-f-l-l-l-l-l-y-y-y-y-y- … b-b-b-b-b-y-y-y-y-y ………………………………………………

I would say, that it is reflective non-thought flow …. not that one would be suppressing the flow of thoughts either ……

When this low alpha is applied to your own thinking and reactions – you notice things you hadn’t noticed before ….. and ‘odd notes’ will always stand out for you to look into a bit further … i.e. to ‘examine’.

Practicing mindfulness and thinking about what mindfulness might be like …. are two different things.

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Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I get that word is used in contexts like, "pushing away" or "denial" and yes those are typically bad things, but it can also be used in the context of simple choice and awareness of. I was close friends with a person who was severely abused in childhood and she told me the only thing that has allowed her to live a happy life was "to not go there, not think about her past." To not let her mind go to those memories or that subject matter. She had done all the methods, years and years of therapy, meds and on and on. None of that helped her. She found a simpler solution. It was not pushing it away or denial. It was merely the realization these thoughts and memories cause me to suffer, so I will not allow my mind or attention to go there, into those.

All subconscious material effects our lives in-the-now …. we just do not see it by dissociating.

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

Krishnamurti used the metaphor of a snake.... the seeing it is enough.

Don’t know what Krishnamurti had said about snakes – but a nondual connection is possible there also. Direct inner knowing – what the snake is 'thinking' - a mutual rapport ……

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[sentient]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

So one Morning i came in and started to offer my negative mental state or depression to the universe. No one told me about it or i didn't read it in a book. So anything that was broken within me ..anything really i would raise it up...and offer it to the universe. It felt good. Can't say i did lots of this but i'm sure it did effect me in a very positive way. Now i thought perhaps the problem is also with this type of practice is getting that tiny seed of faith, that tiny patch of blue in a grey sky ..so that the person can offer their depression or whatever mental health problem is going on for them to that little glimpse of insight they have already had. And perhaps that is the key. How do we uncover that little bit of awareness and insight so greater stuff can be offered ..or let pass through ..or understand as you mention in your other posts. I think you were saying that post meditation and in formal meditation itself you could understand stuff better and gain clarity.

Well. It is acknowledging “What Is” and opening up about it. No point in hiding it from the 'Universe'.
So yeah! - The first step in healing …..

The moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too. All sorts of things occur to help one that would never otherwise have occurred. A whole stream of events issues from the decision which no man could have dreamed would have come his way. Whatever you can do, or dream you can do, begin it. Boldness has genius, power, and magic in it. Begin it now.
― John Anster

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[sentient]

Originally Posted by sky123

I wasn't referring to Panic Attacks but Dissociation in itself.

Can you expand a bit more, what you mean by ‘dissociation in itself'?

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[Phaelyn]

I'm reminded of the tonal and nagual discussion Don Juan had with Carlos in the cafe... everything on this table is the tonal.... the napkins, the silverware, the ketchup.....then with a sweep of his hand out beyond the table, out there.... is the nagual....where shaman's dwell.

I can imagine Carlos saying, is meditation or mindfulness the nagual? No this salt shaker is meditation and this fork is mindfulness. Is enlightenment the nagual? No enlightenment is the pepper. Is emptiness the nagual? No emptiness is this menu. Is non-duality the nagual? No this plate is non-duality.

Everything you can think of, is the tonal, the land of ordinary men and women. What is the nagual? It can't be named or known, it can only be experienced. As soon as it becomes something, one has stepped out of it, back to the ordinary world of the tonal.

If an entity had discovered a way to live completely free of the conceptual, then all these concepts, meditation, mindfulness, enlightenment, liberation, non-duality, would cease to be a part of their now. Now to them is non-conceptual experience, experience without an idea. What is then experienced? The unknown...and bliss or joy I would assume.... The known cannot meet the unknown, the known has to be discarded. Krishnamurti explained that people are like a center of a sphere with an outer border. From this center we imagine what is beyond ourselves, beyond the border. There is no way for the center to go beyond it's own borders. To know what is beyond the border or the known, the center itself has to be gone.

That means you’re starting to have enough of all that. You see that everything you’re going to experience through your senses and everything you’re going to know through your thinking mind is not going to be enough. And worldly things begin to appear like dross instead of gold….. Ram Dass from the book Be Here Now

[sky]

Originally Posted by sentient

Can you expand a bit more, what you mean by ‘dissociation in itself'?

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You can have the symptoms of dissociation without a dissociative disorder. It seems that the common understanding of Dissociation is flawed by most but not all of Medical Specialists. Some people can Dissociate without suffering from trauma/mental health issues which seems to be the main and popular diagnosis given. It seems to be as common as depression but very little research has been done as to what causes it, it seems to gets brushed under the carpet unless they can put a label on it.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

wowww sounds great. Hope you can share some of what comes up with the East meets West Psychotherapy class if at all possible. Great Degree Btw. Fair play you. Best Regards. Joe.

This is the agenda for the continuing education class (East Meets West in Psychotherapy - Intermediate to Advanced Clinical Training For Mental and Behavioral Health Professionals) as shown on the public web-site of the Higher Thought Institute. It sounds like an intense 2 days.

Let me know if any topic is of specific interest to you.

https://app.ce-go.com/east-meets-wes...ly-2020/agenda

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

The unknown...and bliss or joy I would assume.... The known cannot meet the unknown, the known has to be discarded. Krishnamurti explained that people are like a center of a sphere with an outer border. From this center we imagine what is beyond ourselves, beyond the border. There is no way for the center to go beyond it's own borders. To know what is beyond the border or the known, the center itself has to be gone.

Please elaborate on this.

As in a lucid dream, one can shift from the particular dream-object to the dreamer, so why can't one shift from the "individual consciousness" to the "collective consciousness" ("higher power", "expanded consciousness", however one chooses to call it) in a similar manner? ("As above , so below.")

The unknown (to the individual's five senses) would seem to become knowable in that manner.

It seems to be a matter of shifting attention in order to see things from a different vantage point.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

' The unknown...and bliss or joy I would assume.... The known cannot meet the unknown, the known has to be discarded. Krishnamurti explained that people are like a center of a sphere with an outer border. From this center we imagine what is beyond ourselves, beyond the border. There is no way for the center to go beyond it's own borders. To know what is beyond the border or the known, the center itself has to be gone. '


The known meets the unknown by knowing there is an unknown which has become known ....

[sentient]

Originally Posted by sky123

You can have the symptoms of dissociation without a dissociative disorder. It seems that the common understanding of Dissociation is flawed by most but not all of Medical Specialists. Some people can Dissociate without suffering from trauma/mental health issues which seems to be the main and popular diagnosis given. It seems to be as common as depression but very little research has been done as to what causes it, it seems to gets brushed under the carpet unless they can put a label on it.

Yeah.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g91qKjathek

Then of course there is the autism spectrum with its many forms of dissociation, which in turn can become traumatic to their offspring who do not know/cannot as a child/infant comprehend …. what is happening ….

I must confess though, when I have ended up in “cappuccino-conversationalists” dinner party – I just have to dissociate at some point ….

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[sentient]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I'm reminded of the tonal and nagual discussion Don Juan had with Carlos in the cafe... everything on this table is the tonal.... the napkins, the silverware, the ketchup.....then with a sweep of his hand out beyond the table, out there.... is the nagual....where shaman's dwell.

The Totality of ourselves is Tonal and Nagual.
Everybody has a physical body and its energetic ‘double’ counterpart.
The knowledge and awareness of this is the conditioning of the shamanic cultures.
We are ‘this dimensional’ and ‘other dimensional’ all at the same time.

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