On Conception and Abortions --- From A Spiritist Perspective

Originally Posted by linen53

That link was the deposition of Perrin Larton. There is also a part 2 if you want to look it up.

I did look it up and if things turn out to be what's reported I'll be happy to acknowledge that you were right. Until then I'll wait until claims have been tested and declared sound.

quote: "Regarding when the spirit enters the body of the fetus, I might recommend a very good book by Helen Wambach titled Life Before Life. Helen hypnotized an auditorium of people and asked just that question: what do you remember? It's out of print but you can still find copies on the internet."


I don't have, and haven't read, Wambach's book but - perhaps wrongly - I associated her with hypnotised subjects recounting past-life memories.

I'd love to hear details from those subjects of their entry points into physical bodies.

Does anyone have a copy of her book?

[linen53]

Originally Posted by leadville

Re memories, the account you gave initially - the one I responded to - was different from the account you gave later.

And are we not allowed to ask any questions???

Like I said, have a nice day.

I am seeing in these posts that just when the soul enters the body is not a strict rule.

Those who are here and remember say they remember pregnancy before birth - but those are the ones who were born and have matured. Those who were close have said they were close. Those who did not make it, for whatever reason, obviously cannot comment on this forum.

So it seems, as per my previous statements, that Spirit does have foreknowledge of what's to come, and does not inhabit a body that is going to be aborted. Because it is known.

I feel this is a logical and rational course of events.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by linen53

Gosh a lot of conversations and emotions here.

Let me tell you of my account. It's long but I will give a shorter version if I can.

My mother (according to what my father told me when I was about 12 or 14) tried to abort me but I wouldn't abort. The abortion was unsuccessful. For years after that I had a nightmare that I was in a fluid and I was small but I was to big. I can't even begin to describe the situation or the horrific emotions attached to this nightmare. For years I didn't understand it. But in my 30's many memories of my childhood came back and I was reminded of this nightmare. I finally put 2 and 2 together and realized it was when my mother was in the process of trying to abort me.

Do I believe in abortion? I'd have to say a strong yes. My childhood was full of hatred and satanic rituals and lots of ritual abuse, sexual abuse by just about every adult in my life.

But on the other hand I have to say I am glad I survived. I wouldn't be the person I am now if I hadn't been born into that family back in the 50's and gone through everything I went through. Thus, I wouldn't be the person I am today.

I think for the soul, the spirit entering the fetus, it's a personal decision. A decision to back out. I chose to persevere.

Regarding when the spirit enters the body of the fetus, I might recommend a very good book by Helen Wambach titled Life Before Life. Helen hypnotized an auditorium of people and asked just that question: what do you remember? It's out of print but you can still find copies on the internet.

Lol, I will never look at a baby as I did before.

You are a survivor.

I am glad you made it! I count you as a friend.

Originally Posted by Kioma

I am seeing in these posts that just when the soul enters the body is not a strict rule.

There are no rules, strict or otherwise.

Those who are here and remember say they remember pregnancy before birth - but those are the ones who were born and have matured. Those who were close have said they were close. Those who did not make it, for whatever reason, obviously cannot comment on this forum.

So it seems, as per my previous statements, that Spirit does have foreknowledge of what's to come, and does not inhabit a body that is going to be aborted. Because it is known.

I feel this is a logical and rational course of events.

When you say "Spirit does have foreknowledge...etc." you appear to assume that events in what we see as the future are effectively 'set-in stone'. But are they really? That would be effectively to anul our free will or to say that the outcome of free will choices is already known before free will is used. Do you think that's the situation?

From my perspective, and from what I understand of guides' teaching on this matter, a spirit commits at conception to the animation of a body into which it will eventually incarnate. From its superior perspective it may be able to see that the viability of the life chosen is uncertain for reasons known to that spirit and to those who counsel it. The spirit can then make a choice whether to continue with its undertaking. Even without such uncertainties the spirit may choose not to continue. I remember somewhere reading that it's thought a fairly high percentage of conceptions do not proceed beyond the very early stages, before conception is even known about by the mother. Perhaps disinclination is one possible reason?

Even where a spirit recognises the potential for a termination of the development of its chosen body it may decide there is a worthwhile chance it may proceed. Put more simply it may not know for sure about, does not have foreknowledge of, the eventual outcome of freewill.

I am not persuaded that the totality of future events is certain and unvarying although some events may be much more likely to occur than others.

I'm not persuaded that local events are certain and unvarying either. We have free will (within limitations) to determine the course of our lives but it's still possible our actions may be constrained by others exercising THEIR own free will. Put more simply, things are far from certain and other folk may goof up your life.

And what's logical and rational to one individual may not be logical and rational to another able to see viable alternatives.

Originally Posted by Elfin

I feel that I need to speak out about "abortion". There are many reasons why a woman would have an "abortion", a word which I find so cold and heartless. But this is my story. I was a teenager in the 70's when I got pregnant. When I told the father of the child that I was expecting, he beat me to a pulp. I made "some" excuse to my parents and refused to disclose to my father who the boyfriend was as he would have killed him. This was only for beating me up. They did not know I was pregnant. When they found out nothing much was said except for 2 things. My father told me he had "washed his hands of me, I was no daughter of his".. my mother just said "I'll take you to the doctor's". It had been made clear to me that I would be out on the streets, no where to live , no money , and no hope. So we went to the doctor's where a test did confirm I was pregnant. Then a discussion occured between the doctor and my mother about "termination" . Not once was I asked my opinion. Not once was I asked "Do you want to keep your baby?".... Not once... The night before it happened I sat up all night in the garden stroking my tummy and telling my child what was about to happen and why. I cried all night long telling my baby over and over how sorry I was and how much I loved him..... And then it was all over. There was a woman in the next bed to me that must have been in her late 30,s that was "getting rid of the evidence" of an affair. I wanted to strangle her and say "don't even feel yourself worthy of talking to me"...After 21 years of crying , i had to try to move on. As I knew in my mind he was "an adult": now. And even now when I think of him, the guilt will not go away. He would be over 40 now. Please feel free to ask any questions...Elfin.

Elfin, that is so horrible. I don't know what to say. How was your relationships with your parents, especially your father after this, if I may ask?

did the father-to-be know of the pregnancy?

You must have felt so powerless, stabbed in the back by your parents when you and their future grandchild needed them the most. I hope this changed them to know better spiritually in the future.

God bless you and thank you for daring to confess to this.

[Altair]

Hey Elfin.. I just read your story. You're clearly not at fault. I think you are a wonderful person because even now you still think about this child.
I think it says a lot about you that you feel this way. It is a strength and I hope you can view it that way too.

Originally Posted by asearcher

Elfin, that is so horrible. .....
God bless you and thank you for daring to confess to this.

daring to confess it? Having the courage and character to share it with us.

Originally Posted by asearcher

Elfin, that is so horrible. I don't know what to say. How was your relationships with your parents, especially your father after this, if I may ask?

did the father-to-be know of the pregnancy?

You must have felt so powerless, stabbed in the back by your parents when you and their future grandchild needed them the most. I hope this changed them to know better spiritually in the future.

God bless you and thank you for daring to confess to this.

Hi Asearcher... Thank you. I don't even know how I had the strength to speak about this as I feel it is such a shameful experience , and not someone one would wish to highlight. The father of the child beat me when I told him. It was winter, it was outside in the ice and snow. He punched me in the face to the ground. He waited until I got up, then punched me back to the ground, over and over . But I did not feel it you see because my face was so numb from the cold. If he had stood by me and supported me , the baby would have born. We would have managed. But given the fact that he did not wish to know, and I would have been out on the streets by my father , in the gutter with no where to live and no money , how could I raise a child. So I was dragged to the doctor's to get it "sorted". And no, sadly my relationship with my parents never improved. The victim being in all of this , my child. Whom I love dearly to this day. I just hope he is happy wherever he went next x