Zen Anybody

[sentient]

Sufism and Zen .....

When Inayat Khan, the Sufi teacher, came to America some ten years ago, I (Nyogen Senzaki) met him in San Francisco.

Inayat Khan smiled at me and asked, “Mr. Senzaki, will you tell me what the significance of Zen is?”

I remained silent for a little while, and then smiled at him. He smiled back at me. Our dialogue was over.

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Sufism-Senzaki.pdf

*

[Joe Mc]

Zen Anybody

Zen has the best stories,and it has poetry. It has formality and informality. Square Zen and Beat Zen was an idea that was around during the beatniks adventures with poetry and writing. Need I say it referred to the formal Zen training structure which included Zazen, Ritual and Koan practice and things of that nature. Beat Zen on the other hand, as opposed to square Zen, referred to a type of skepticism with everything a questioning, not to mention some drug taking lol.

It may seem obvious to say but Zen seems to be unique in this regard when compared to other schools of Buddhism. It has an iconoclastic aspect to it that doesn't exist amongst say Theravadin Buddhism or Mahayana Buddhism. This is debatable of course and one could easily argue that Tibetan Buddhism in the form of the Vajrayanic path has 'crazy wisdom' which sometimes completely leaps outside the rules of formal training.

Anyway I was just wondering also why there are not so many threads here, if any, on Zen Buddhism ? It seems like the Buddhist Forum has become a hot bed ,with no disrespect meant, to the crossing the 't's' and dotting 'i's of classical theravadin buddhistic debate. It almost feels to me sometimes that you have to be a librarian or an expert in Pali Canon classifications to be part of ? But I know some of that feeling is my own lack of education in that regard so please forgive me.

So perhaps this thread could be open to Zen Buddhism, stories anecdotes, personal stories, poetry , zazen, snowballs, thieves, alcoholism or none of the above or all of the above ? Perhaps there could be a place for Zen after all or not as the case may be ?

Kind Regards, Joe

Ps. I would also be grateful if people could desist from racial profiling knowingly or unknowingly, wittingly or unwittingly. Otherwise this thread will be pulled by the admin. and rightly so. There has been a decent amount of sharing here already regarding the subject of Zen. Silence is also ok, and there is also nothing wrong with being tangential that seems to happen naturally enough, peeps start to talk about Religion, Psychology and all manner of things but that too would benefit if we try to bring it back to formal and informal knowledge, anecdotes, wisdom and our own experiences of Zen. I'm Irish myself so I'm no stranger to War, famine, colonialism, sectarianism even catholicism hahahaha !!! lol. Why would i need an enemy when i have encountered so many 'perceived' enemies in my life time without name nor face nor nationality, nor identity really. I am talking about perception and thoughts here, attitudes and feelings. Thanks.

************************************************** *******
__________________

[Joe Mc]

Originally Posted by sentient

Sufism and Zen .....

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Sufism-Senzaki.pdf

*

Thanks

[Phaelyn]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

It may seem obvious to say but Zen seems to be unique in this regard when compared to other schools of Buddhism.

I found this quote: Zen minus Buddhism equals Taoism.

A special transmission outside the scriptures.
No dependency on words and letters.
Pointing directly to the human mind.
Seeing into one’s nature and attaining Buddhahood.
Bodhidharma.

Zen seems to have been influenced by Taoism and Confucianism which produces a certain flavor of Buddhism while other schools were influenced by Hinduism.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

I found this quote: Zen minus Buddhism equals Taoism.

A special transmission outside the scriptures.
No dependency on words and letters.
Pointing directly to the human mind.
Seeing into one’s nature and attaining Buddhahood.
Bodhidharma.

Zen seems to have been influenced by Taoism and Confucianism which produces a certain flavor of Buddhism while other schools were influenced by Hinduism.

As Zen was brought from China it's inevitable it was influenced by Taoism/Confucianism but it's all good

Not always mentioned Mencius was another great Sage and Philosopher..



'The way of learning is none other than finding the lost mind.'

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sentient

Sufism and Zen .....

When Inayat Khan, the Sufi teacher, came to America some ten years ago, I (Nyogen Senzaki) met him in San Francisco.

Inayat Khan smiled at me and asked, “Mr. Senzaki, will you tell me what the significance of Zen is?”

I remained silent for a little while, and then smiled at him. He smiled back at me. Our dialogue was over.

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Sufism-Senzaki.pdf

*

I practiced under Pir Vilayat Khan, the son of Hazrat Inayat Khan who left the earth plane in 1927. That story says it all.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Phaelyn

A special transmission outside the scriptures.
No dependency on words and letters.
Pointing directly to the human mind.
Seeing into one’s nature and attaining Buddhahood.
Bodhidharma.

"No dependency on words and letters".

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

I practiced under Pir Vilayat Khan, the son of Hazrat Inayat Khan who left the earth plane in 1927.

Yes, you had mentioned that in one of your earlier posts – how interesting!

I have always been fascinated by Sufism, but all of a sudden Sufism became like an ‘alive thread’ since – thanks to hologram8’s signature, I looked into my deep ancestry from Caucasus and suddenly realized they had been/are Sufis. So there is a personal connection, although a faint one.

Sometimes one can “journey” along these threads and tap into the collective unconscious of them to get a proper ‘feel’ if these threads are not too old.
The dombra and the drum acting as a conduit to take you ‘there’. 'That' specific rhythmic pattern of them ….

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

That story says it all.

Yes it does.
Though my mind translates it as them having had a memorable non-dual moment together.
That dimensional moment of silence and stillness which is beyond both - thought and non-thought (as such).
Non-thought being a ‘conduit’ to it - to the 'shift'.
Just like sensuality can be a ‘conduit’ to a more ‘spiritually’ dimensional ‘feel’ …

*

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by sentient

Sufism and Zen .....

When Inayat Khan, the Sufi teacher, came to America some ten years ago, I (Nyogen Senzaki) met him in San Francisco.

Inayat Khan smiled at me and asked, “Mr. Senzaki, will you tell me what the significance of Zen is?”

I remained silent for a little while, and then smiled at him. He smiled back at me. Our dialogue was over.

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Sufism-Senzaki.pdf

*

Originally Posted by sentient

Though my mind translates it as them having had a memorable non-dual moment together.
That dimensional moment of silence and stillness which is beyond both - thought and non-thought (as such).
Non-thought being a ‘conduit’ to it - to the 'shift'.
Just like sensuality can be a ‘conduit’ to a more ‘spiritually’ dimensional ‘feel’ …

*

Many people would be surprised if they realized what can effectively be communicated in complete and utter silence.

Your point is very well-taken !

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Joe Mc

Zen Anybody

Zen has the best stories,and it has poetry. It has formality and informality. Square Zen and Beat Zen was an idea that was around during the beatniks adventures with poetry and writing. Need I say it referred to the formal Zen training structure which included Zazen, Ritual and Koan practice and things of that nature. Beat Zen on the other hand, as opposed to square Zen, referred to a type of skepticism with everything a questioning, not to mention some drug taking lol.

It may seem obvious to say but Zen seems to be unique in this regard when compared to other schools of Buddhism. It has an iconoclastic aspect to it that doesn't exist amongst say Theravadin Buddhism or Mahayana Buddhism. This is debatable of course and one could easily argue that Tibetan Buddhism in the form of the Vajrayanic path has 'crazy wisdom' which sometimes completely leaps outside the rules of formal training.

Anyway I was just wondering also why there are not so many threads here, if any, on Zen Buddhism ? It seems like the Buddhist Forum has become a hot bed ,with no disrespect meant, to the crossing the 't's' and dotting 'i's of classical theravadin buddhistic debate. It almost feels to me sometimes that you have to be a librarian or an expert in Pali Canon classifications to be part of ? But I know some of that feeling is my own lack of education in that regard so please forgive me.

So perhaps this thread could be open to Zen Buddhism, stories anecdotes, personal stories, poetry , zazen, snowballs, thieves, alcoholism or none of the above or all of the above ? Perhaps there could be a place for Zen after all or not as the case may be ?

Kind Regards, Joe

Ps. I would also be grateful if people could desist from racial profiling knowingly or unknowingly, wittingly or unwittingly. Otherwise this thread will be pulled by the admin. and rightly so. There has been a decent amount of sharing here already regarding the subject of Zen. Silence is also ok, and there is also nothing wrong with being tangential that seems to happen naturally enough, peeps start to talk about Religion, Psychology and all manner of things but that too would benefit if we try to bring it back to formal and informal knowledge, anecdotes, wisdom and our own experiences of Zen. I'm Irish myself so I'm no stranger to War, famine, colonialism, sectarianism even catholicism hahahaha !!! lol. Why would i need an enemy when i have encountered so many 'perceived' enemies in my life time without name nor face nor nationality, nor identity really. I am talking about perception and thoughts here, attitudes and feelings. Thanks.

************************************************** *******
__________________

I too love the Zen stories as they trigger reflection and insight. Here's one of my favorite Zen stories from the Korean Zen Master, Seung Sahn. It was sent to me by a friend.

WOMEN CANNOT GET ENLIGHTENMENT

One day, one of Zen Master Seung Sahn's female American students asked him, "Sir, are there any women Zen masters in Korea?"

"No, no , no!" he quickly replied."Of course not!"

The student was completely shocked, even angered by this, more so because Zen Master Seung Sahn himself had always treated his female students with complete equality, and even formally authorized several of them to teach. "How could he think like this?" she thought. "This is completely outrageous." After a few moments, she stammered out, "But how is this possible?"

Eyeing her and half-smiling, he repleied, "Because women cannot get enlightenment".

This was unbelievable. Half-expecting that he was joking, she looked up, but by then he had already marched into another room. She followed him, where he had busied himself with some things, almost as if the conversation had never occurred.

"I have been practicing with you for several years now," she continued. "You have always taught us to believe in our true self 100 percent. How can you possibly say that women cannot get enlightenment?"

Wheeling around sharply, Zen Master Seung Sahn pointed his finger at her and, looking deeply into her eyes strongly, said, "So, you're a 'woman'?"

The student was silent as his teaching sank in.