Doubting the "need" for evil

[helloworld]

I've been unable to find a truly plausible explanation for the necessity of evil. Many authors and intellectuals say it is needed in order for us to recognize good, but they all fall flat (IMO) when explaining what the world would be like without evil. Why can't we be reincarnated with an innate knowledge of evil, and the "instinct" to avoid cruelty? Some posit that without evil we would all behave like listless robots. But it seems to me there are other forces, such as our competitive nature, our desire for self-improvement and more that would prevent that. And btw when I speak of evil I'm referring to human cruelty, not natural disasters, disease, etc.. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

[sky]

Originally Posted by helloworld

I've been unable to find a truly plausible explanation for the necessity of evil. Many authors and intellectuals say it is needed in order for us to recognize good, but they all fall flat (IMO) when explaining what the world would be like without evil. Why can't we be reincarnated with an innate knowledge of evil, and the "instinct" to avoid cruelty? Some posit that without evil we would all behave like listless robots. But it seems to me there are other forces, such as our competitive nature, our desire for self-improvement and more that would prevent that. And btw when I speak of evil I'm referring to human cruelty, not natural disasters, disease, etc.. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Why do you think there is a need for evil ?.
In Buddhism you are advised not to think of people as good or bad but rather action and reaction, cause and effect..
Evil is something that we ourselves create but not something that we are, good and evil are not moral judgements but rather what we do and what effects are created by what we do.

By oneself is evil done, by oneself is one defiled. By oneself is evil left undone, by oneself, indeed, is one purified. Purity and unpurity depend on oneself. Nobody purifies another.
Buddha.
Dhammapada chapter 12 verse 165.

Evil is definitely not needed but unfortunately evil deeds are done because we do not see others as ourselves.

[Bohdiyana]

Originally Posted by helloworld

I've been unable to find a truly plausible explanation for the necessity of evil. And btw when I speak of evil I'm referring to human cruelty, not natural disasters, disease, etc.. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Evil is probably not the right word for what you are describing because it is about ignorance and unconsciousness and conditioning more than the intent of a "soul" or a consciousness. It's really the lack of the "souls" or consciousnesses presence as awareness in the body that is the cause of such things.

My theory to explain it is basically we exist as a form of conscious energy. For our evolution, which involves an increase in awareness and intelligence etc, we incarnate in lower energy realms like this one. We merge with a human body and it's mind then a type of struggle then exists while the body is alive between us, as conscious energy, and the lower unconscious nature of the body and it's mind.

So here during an incarnation we exist in a dual state, us and the body. We are merged in very complex ways so we believe ourselves and usually experience ourselves to be one and the same. Our thoughts, memories, beliefs, ideas etc exist in both our consciousness (souls) and in our body. They exist in our body in a physical state in our brains as memories and thoughts and they exist in our consciousness as energy and knowledge (knowing.) So they have two sources, one physical and one "spiritual." That kind of explains the structure this all takes place in.

So there are these two forces in us competing for control of our experience and actions. One is of a lower animal nature and one is of a higher spiritual nature. To the degree our consciousness is aware and present, we do good. If consciousness is passive and unaware, the drives of the body take over, which are somewhat dependent on ones conditioning.

Now to your question of why this structure is necessary, well because whatever is the creator of consciousness desires it to evolve and increase in various qualities because through this it itself increases. My theory why this is going on is this, the source of consciousness itself is evolving and becoming more. The drive to know more, to be aware of more, is inherently a part of conscious energy itself. Conscious energy naturally seeks to know more, that is it's nature as energy. So "god" or the being or source from which we are created and a part of, increases in awareness as the parts or "cells" of it increase, us in other words.

It's like a tv screen hooked up to security cameras all showing a different part of a department store. Some security guard is sitting there aware of all the cameras are showing. As you add more security cameras, that security guard is aware of more and more of the store.

Creating a new "soul" is like the source creating a new cell in it's body. All the cells together make up what the source is and is capable of. So the source is constantly adding "cells" to it's "body" which are new particles of conscious energy to evolve, these are then placed/merged within animal bodies in the physical world, which are basically lower energy forms, in order to grow in awareness and intelligence. The things you describe exist because this new conscious energy does not yet have the awareness necessary to overcome the drives and actions of the lower energies of the body. So this all exists as a kind of school. It give the consciousness a way to evolve.

[helloworld]

Interesting. Thank you for the detailed and plausible explanation. Do you think all bodies — the hosts of the higher consciousness as you describe it — have the same base "needs" that have the propensity to do evil, or do some bodies have stronger urges than others. Perhaps due to biological makeup and environmental experiences...

[helloworld]

No I have not explained myself clearly. I am saying I do not believe evil is necessary.

[baro-san]

Originally Posted by helloworld

I've been unable to find a truly plausible explanation for the necessity of evil. Many authors and intellectuals say it is needed in order for us to recognize good, but they all fall flat (IMO) when explaining what the world would be like without evil. Why can't we be reincarnated with an innate knowledge of evil, and the "instinct" to avoid cruelty? Some posit that without evil we would all behave like listless robots. But it seems to me there are other forces, such as our competitive nature, our desire for self-improvement and more that would prevent that. And btw when I speak of evil I'm referring to human cruelty, not natural disasters, disease, etc.. Any thoughts greatly appreciated.

Evil isn't necessary; it just is. It's natural.

An animal killing another, sometimes form its own species, is natural. A plant invading another is natural. A falling meteorite is natural.

Human cruelty is natural. It manifests to yet undeveloped souls: undeveloped reasoning, no emotions control. Souls evolve.

[Gem]

..........

[Gem]

Originally Posted by helloworld

No I have not explained myself clearly. I am saying I do not believe evil is necessary.

In Buddhist thought there isn't good and evil per-se, but there is a 'natural moral law'. Human cruelty or kindness relates not to action so much, but to the 'volition' ('cetana' in pali language) behind the action. Buddha said "it is volition that I call kamma (karma)". Depending on the volition, there are good outcomes or bad outcomes... mostly in terms of suffering.
Quite a good discourse on it here: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/volition.pdf

[Bohdiyana]

Originally Posted by helloworld

Do you think all bodies — the hosts of the higher consciousness as you describe it — have the same base "needs" that have the propensity to do evil, or do some bodies have stronger urges than others. Perhaps due to biological makeup and environmental experiences...

Well most mammals are pleasure seeking, and self centered, but then they also bond with others of their species and care for them and are protective of them. Some of the stuff you may be saying is "evil" is really just natural instincts like protecting themselves or those they are bonded with. There was a popular nature film that showed the lives of a group of hyenas and lions that occupied the same hunting grounds. Well these two groups were constantly fighting over food. It tended to be just growling at each other and chasing each other off kills back and forth but then one night the cameras captured the moment a group of hyenas managed to catch a lioness off by herself and they surrounded her then killed her. Well the next day the lion pride leader, a male who basically did nothing but sleep, as the female lions did all the hunting, he came upon her body and by smell, he knew the hyenas killed her. Well this normally passive and non-violent male took off like a rocket straight into the middle of the hyenas pack and he went straight to the alpha hyena, grabbed her by the neck, and killed her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0akqcu-ujw

So somethings we may define as "evil" are really just the natural animal natures. To us, when some bobcat or mountain lion roams the neighborhood killing pet cats and dogs, we may think such an animal is evil, but really they are just acting according to their conditioning and nature. Really it's the same with a lot of human violence, like wars. Is it different groups of humans defending their territories and those they love. One person from a group harms somebody in another group, then it escalates over time until bombs are flying. "Cruelty" happens but it is coming out of primal fear and hate and love and protectiveness, self survival and other natural animal instincts.

Then as far as the host body, there are huge differences. The bodies or "hosts" can be born healthy or severely messed up. Human's can be born with all kinds of inherited brain problems and mental illnesses. Then also, like you mentioned, environmental experiences condition people as well. Like that thing that happens if a baby is not held enough during the first 3 months of life. Scientists found that babies who are not held and nuzzled and hugged enough will literally stop growing and if the situation lasts long enough, even if they are receiving proper nutrition, they die. Many children who are not nurtured enough in childhood will have life long psychotic problems and never recover to be normal. Many are violent, can't socialize in any normal way, and end up in prison.

So we have natural animal instincts, these can lead us to be violent. We have mental illness from brain problems that can lead us to be violent, Then we can be conditioned to be violent though traumatic experiences and environments.

All of these things are givens, so where is individual freedom of action? Well then we get into awareness. As we start to become self aware in higher and higher ways, our choices become increased. That's what a human life is. Many things can lead us to harm others, but then every single thing can be risen above through self awareness, through understanding ourselves and others, then we can choose to not follow our primal instincts or our conditioning and choose understanding over violence. So I'm not sure if one can ever be labeled as evil. They are messed up yes. Their thinking is messed up, their brains may be messed up, and they have no self awareness, or empathy, or understanding that amounts to much. So it's like Jesus said on the cross about those who were torturing and killing him. He said, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." They did not have the self awareness and understanding needed to see they could make different choices.

[Ground]

Where is evil? Where is good? These are just moral preoccupations. What is considered 'evil' may entail good effects and what is considered 'good' may have bad effects.
Consider this: The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Religions do need belief in evil because otherwise they would have no followers.