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  #11  
Old 20-04-2016, 01:19 PM
Baile Baile is offline
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Originally Posted by Macsen1961
Gnostic teachings were that God resided in us, which according to them, made all of us divine, and it showed in their writings and interpretation of the teachings of Jesus.
Nice post. This is everything I have read and studied the past three decades or so - esoteric Christian philosophy mainly. These are all my conclusions as well. Also, that one comes to truth via the inner self-realization path, which I refer to as the experiential wisdom path. Which again is why doctrine having to do with external entities and beings and so forth, makes no difference to me and my path. It's of interest, yes, but only because all ideas are of value in that they offer material for contemplation.
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  #12  
Old 20-04-2016, 03:22 PM
Macsen1961 Macsen1961 is offline
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Baile, this is the problem with organized religions. Dogma is shoved down the throats of the masses when the teachings of Jesus was centered on the individual.

Each path to a spiritual connection to a higher power is personal. The failure of people who blindly follow dogma, and the fact that most people are all too willing to let someone tell them what to think and do has directly contributed to some of the most heinous acts committed in the name of religion.

I was raised Catholic, and I have always been one to rock the boat. I gave the parish priests fits by asking the questions that dogma says should not be asked.

A good example was the most glaringly obvious.

If Jesus taught in the synagogues of Judea, and professed to following the law of Moses, instructing his followers to do the same while also pointing out the flaws in blindly following the law, then by his own standard he had to be married.

A man could not teach in the synagogue unless he had a wife.

The accepted gospels even hint at it, specifically his first miracle. Consider the situation, there is a wedding feast, the wine has run out.

Mary, the mother of Jesus instructs the servants to follow the instructions of Jesus who turns water to wine.

First, the only way Mary would have had the authority to instruct the servants is that if she had been the mother of the groom.

Who else could the groom have been?
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  #13  
Old 20-04-2016, 03:48 PM
Baile Baile is offline
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Originally Posted by Macsen1961
If Jesus taught in the synagogues of Judea, and professed to following the law of Moses, instructing his followers to do the same while also pointing out the flaws in blindly following the law, then by his own standard he had to be married.

Consider the situation, there is a wedding feast, the wine has run out.

Mary, the mother of Jesus instructs the servants to follow the instructions of Jesus who turns water to wine.
Did you read The Last Temptation of Christ? I read the book long before the movie came out, so the ending was pure surprise for me, I still laugh at how it caught me completely off-guard. I've never had an issue with that theory, Jesus and Mary as a couple changes nothing, so one can dream whatever they wish. Things like that I try not to turn into my own dogma, I don't need to believe it or disbelieve it. It's an interesting thing to contemplate.

But I know a lot of spiritualists don't feel that way. Many believe that the whole point of the Spirit investigation path is to learn the TRUTH about Spirit. The idea being that it is only by knowing what truly is TRUTH, that we can progress in our Spirit understanding. But I don't hold that view. I don't see the difference between that approach, and any of the other dogmatic approaches all the various religions and spiritual philosophies take.
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  #14  
Old 20-04-2016, 11:56 PM
Sozerius Sozerius is offline
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Originally Posted by Kathrin
To understand Lucifer you have to be Self-connected: Connected to your "origin", your energy source, God, the Self or whatever else this perspective is called. Lucifer represents the non-connection and death. Non-connection leaves physicality to disintegration, which leads to physical death. Lucifer stands also for any undertaking in a state of disconnection, f. e. Lust without Love. Venus is a representative of The Feminine, one half of all (earth-related) creation. The Feminine is historically portrayed as dangerous and destructive. On a science level, the feminine is just 50% of an electrical current, or of an electro-magnetic setting. The problem in your description lies in the fact that there is the "Perception Horizon", beyond which we do not have ways to "measure". So, more than 95 % of creation do not reveal themselves to our perspectives, our measuring. In addition, science refuses the integration of concepts of God or consciousness, in fear of a possible negative effect on humanity in general. Under this condition, we have - in Science - no access to thought paths which would lead to revelations. This actually is the luciferian status. Science has disconnected itself from creation itself. And much of this phenomenon comes along with the avoidance of the feminine perspective. There is no connection with reality without full integration. There are no answers or solutions without connection. Just as there would be no planet without the electro-magnetic setting of the energy Source. The "Perception Horizon" represents a reference point where both opposing perspectives are present: Integration and Disintegration. Matter and Non-Matter. Feminine and Masculine. Both create. It is an everpresent connection. The denial of a connection with an aspect of Life is respresented by Lucifer. In Lucifers case it is the denial of a Source as holding the power. Lucifer represents the desire for power and separation, the ability to create without being dependant on an "outside" Source. This source though is what Lucifer is made of. Separation is therefore impossible. Anything that is created in the state of "separation" is "separated" from the sourcing current and can live only as long as the energy remains fuel it. It has no life on its own and must die. Life only goes on when connected. To the sourcing stream. Because Source can not be seen or measured appropriately, it is claimed that there is none. While there is much unexplained in general. The disconnected live a luciferian life. The Self-connected can sense beyond the perception horizon. Sensing our origin explains a lot more than Science can so far. And finds compassion for Lucifer, the mislead creature who refused to be connected and "overpowered". Lucifer in reference to Venus stands for the danger of seduction. Seduction is misunderstood as something feminine. It is in fact the seduction of one's mind by re-guiding based on desire. Desire is asexual and only about power. Of course, it is mostly recognized as sexual desire. Men used to hold the power in The World, for a long time. So, everything we find historically, in male dominated cultures, is explained from a man's perspective. Women's perspectives are not taken into consideration. Don't take for granted what you find there. 50% are missing. Again, desire is about power. The desire to be able to create as wished. In Lucifer, this desire to create as wished becomes seducted by the idea of living indepently. Interestingly, Lucifer is portrayed as a masculine being. The Masculine in its nature is in fact not connection oriented but goal oriented. A predominantly masculine perspective is as such rather separation oriented. In a person carrying mostly masculine energy the finding of an understanding for the value of connection is not as easy as for a mostly feminine being. Lucifer sees what is most natural for him, as a masculine being. He does not see the impossibility of his desire for "success" and does not want to acknowledge it. The idea of being an independent creator is so seductive and desired that he moves into the state of disconnection. And keeps pretending to be independent. Not even being able to have a body.

Embodiment is a co-creation. Life is connection. Helpful?

Your post is very interesting. I'm not sure that I agree that Venus, or Lucifer, or Feminine/Masculine, are quite as detrimental and negative though, as you have suggested. I believe that there are good things here, and so we ought not to ignore the whole picture. Also - as human beings, were we to connect with Venus, or Lucifer, we need not only connect to it alone. As we also connect to our environments here on earth - each other, and, are influenced by all of the cosmic forces around us from each planet, the sun, and spirits in general. The spirit of the Earth itself would likely be most prominent at all times other than the Sun and Moon. Integration, rather than disintegration, can be a useful tool when connecting to Venus because it is a powerful motivating force. I believe that it can be seen as either feminine or masculine and so whichever you choose to seek for yourself ought to be up to your preference.
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  #15  
Old 21-04-2016, 03:33 AM
Macsen1961 Macsen1961 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baile
Did you read The Last Temptation of Christ? I read the book long before the movie came out, so the ending was pure surprise for me, I still laugh at how it caught me completely off-guard. I've never had an issue with that theory, Jesus and Mary as a couple changes nothing, so one can dream whatever they wish. Things like that I try not to turn into my own dogma, I don't need to believe it or disbelieve it. It's an interesting thing to contemplate.

But I know a lot of spiritualists don't feel that way. Many believe that the whole point of the Spirit investigation path is to learn the TRUTH about Spirit. The idea being that it is only by knowing what truly is TRUTH, that we can progress in our Spirit understanding. But I don't hold that view. I don't see the difference between that approach, and any of the other dogmatic approaches all the various religions and spiritual philosophies take.

The problem with the search for truth is that truth is subjective, and many spiritual individuals insist that there is only one truth.

My personal journey through this life has led me to discover a lot of truths, but then truth is not permanent either.

Take a child, for them, one of their truths is that Santa is a real person.

As adults, we know that Santa is the embodiment of the spirit of giving, and not a real individual of flesh.

My truth today is not the same as yesterday or 10 years ago.

My belief is that every truth you discover is just one step toward a higher truth that is for you alone.

I am sure that you know of the five blind men discribing an elephant just by the part of the animal they touch, each one of them had his own truth.

A long time ago, I gave up the search for the truth, instead focusing on the solution that was the puzzle of my life.
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  #16  
Old 21-04-2016, 05:46 AM
Kathrin Kathrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baile
Very interesting post. That comment though could be interpreted in different ways. Is the source of power God? Is the source of power Self? Is the source of power God in Self? I acknowledge a source of power - Self - which perhaps explains my general disinterest in the idea of "external beings" such as Lucifer.

So far, I think the Self is like a zone in which Here and Now (inlcuding the person "Me") and God are present/connected. Like intertwined and more directly in exchange. It is all gradual. Just everything is gradual. There are no real borders. And options are infinite. The Self seems to have more "personal attachment" with ME. It seems to be "closer" to ME than Source. However, it represents God too. And Source. And Source has no location and is what I am made of. And what the Self is made of. I can only feel my way through stuff to get an understanding of where I am or what I am trying to describe. It is all so gradual and God is omnipresent because we and everything else is made of God/Source.
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  #17  
Old 21-04-2016, 05:55 AM
Kathrin Kathrin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macsen1961
What you are saying, about the source of power being the self, is a lot like many of the Gnostic gospels excluded by mainstream Christian sects.

Even in the early days after the crucifixion, Gnostic teachings were that God resided in us, which according to them, made all of us divine, and it showed in their writings and interpretation of the teachings of Jesus.

It was also one of the issues Emperor Constantine sought to deal with when he 'invited' the bishops of the early church to Nicaea to get everyone to agree on just what the central points of Christianity were.

And of course, shortly after the Council of Nicaea, Gnostic followers were labeled heretics, and the rest, as they say, is history. Gnosticism went the way of the dodo, with the exception of a few groups like the Cathars.

I would like to state here, that Yeshua, to me, got very far with understanding "reality" and therefore could do what has been reported. To me, he was the ultimate LOA pro, so far.
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  #18  
Old 21-04-2016, 11:34 AM
Baile Baile is offline
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Originally Posted by Macsen1961
The problem with the search for truth is that truth is subjective... My belief is that every truth you discover is just one step toward a higher truth that is for you alone.
That's my view with regards to individual self-development. That said, there appear to be set laws (truths) that apply to physical existence, laws and truths every human being experiences. Sun rising in the east. Day and night. Seasons and years. Birth and death. Light, water, earth and air as catalysts for life.

As above so below. As natural laws exist in the material, spiritual laws must exist as well. And taking that one step further, natural laws of the material must in some way coincide with and reflect those spiritual laws. My path is to experience and observe life, in order to understand myself and material life, in order to determine and understand what those spiritual laws - laws that are relevant to all human soul-spirit life - might be.

I approach truth, one experiential-wisdom step at a time, in part because that is my path, but also to avoid jumping to belief-dogma conclusions. A few examples of what I mean:

-I wake each morning, and sleep each evening, that is truth.
-I experience and interact with a world that appears to be outside of myself.
-I have experiences from time to time of that outside world, as a reflection of my inner world.
-I dream dreams; I live other existences, both in my sleep life and in my waking imagination.

An example of belief-dogma would be to then jump to the conclusion that a higher intelligence - a God, or Universal Mind, or Invisible Beings of any sort - are responsible for this interconnected world I see and experience. That's nothing more than a logic leap based purely on faith and/or philosophy-specific doctrine. This is a tough one for many people to understand; it's so ingrained in our society that "capital 'S' Something" is responsible for creating and guiding all this.

I bring this example up specifically to demonstrate how insidious belief-dogma is. We're conditioned to think we must believe in something higher and better than us. And that if we don't believe, it somehow makes us sinful, or egotistical, or ungrateful, or unspiritual. We can't just be what we are, we're always thinking we have to be something else. That's the insidious and ironic nature of belief-dogma, it removes the individual from the experience of the Now. Yet it is the individual experience of the Now that is in fact the path to Spirit, and to Spirit truth.

Last edited by Baile : 21-04-2016 at 12:34 PM.
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  #19  
Old 30-08-2016, 06:23 AM
2heal.all 2heal.all is offline
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what an amazing and interesting topic

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Originally Posted by Sozerius
I was conversing with someone and this lead into observations regarding Lucifer, and consciousness itself. I thought I would share for any who might be interested in this topic on here.

To start off- Lucifer can also be thought of as Prometheus, the Greek god who disobeyed Zeus by bringing fire to mankind. Sound familiar? It should - Lucifer caused mankind to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil (against God's will). Zeus punished Prometheus with eternal torment. This also rings true with hell.

There are other possible entities who may be similar to Lucifer as well. Lucifer is the bright morning star, or, Venus. The Greeks also had an equivalent for this, in the form of both Eosphorus and Hespheros. The Roman equivalent is Vesper. These two are sometimes thought of as different entities and sometimes as the same entity however they both represent Venus, the bright morning star, one during the morning and one during the evening.

One section in particular mentions this: "PHOSPHORUS (Phsphoros),or as the poets call him Hesphoros or Phaesphoros (Lat. Lucfer)". The word Lucifer itself means Dawn-Bringer or Light Bringer, as pertaining to Venus. Incidentally, Venus is the Planet which is normally spiritually aligned with Love, Beauty, and Passion. Lucifer has been referred to as the 'most beautiful', 'beloved', etc. It is worth mentioning that Jesus is referred to as the Bright Morning Star as well. But it is probably also worth noting that Jesus may have been inspired by, or actually been, Lucifer. And his story/intentions match up with what is consistent for Lucifer in Greek terms, as well as Christian terms if you consider that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was actually evolution and freedom for humanity.

This same figure (Lucifer) always seeks to aid humanity in similar ways and is referred to as similar things throughout various cultures. In Egyptian mythology, this entity is Horus. Horus is also identified with the morning star, and not only this, is thought to be the reincarnation of Osiris, which was associated with the evening.

This is comparable to the split/union of the Greek gods Eosphorus and Hesphorus, also evening and morning, while maintaining the association with Venus. There are a lot of correlations between this story and Egyptian mythology and I encourage you to do some reading about it - any quick search should pull up tons of info. Here is one option for light reading:

As you can see, the coincidences really start to stack up. As for true spiritual experiences that go beyond these correlations, this depends on how far you want to dive into the rabbit hole. This is all very interesting on an intellectual level alone, of course. But to go much farther than that involves mysticism and the spiritual aspect of reality.

The planets do influence us, physically, but more than that, there is a spiritual force behind many of the machinations of the universe. Your own mind and brain are formed by an electric awareness (if you didn't know this, look up neurons because they facilitate the electrical/chemical exchange in your body, meaning this is how your consciousness can connect with your body on a chemical level even though you are electrical, or look here:

this is evident in your brain and nervous system (also look up the nervous system if you are not familiar), both in the obvious ways that we know about via science, and the not so obvious ways that are not yet observable due to the frequencies our minds are capable of operating on, on an electro-magnetic level.

Keeping this in mind, one could imagine how the force of many of the planets, the sun, the earth, effect us when it comes to frequencies that are being emit at us. Radiation, light, magnetic waves, and waves that we may not yet have even discovered yet.

And, an additional way to look at this is to consider the belief in horoscopes and how the constellations effect us - it is via the waves of energy, light, radiation, gravity, magnetism, all things that we discern a part of but not all of - that interacts with out own mind or our own waves of magnetism and electricity, etc other things we may not know about - something that we also may observe a part of scientifically, but not all of. But of course, on a human level, you can experience your own mind and self awareness and do so. Your experience is created by that very same energy, that electric 'self'.

Electricity itself is light and has magnetic properties, and your consciousness is an electric thing, meaning it is expressed by both light and magnetism, as well as other expressions such as heat. Along with ways that we can only dream of for now. And, how these frequencies are harmonizing with the frequencies of our own consciousness. In this respect, it becomes very spiritual although invisible to most. - If your own consciousness, which is electric, is self aware, then there is actually a fairly good chance by association that other electric phenomena also has a degree of awareness - such as many of the waves that travel throughout the universe, some tied to planets, such as Venus. This would explain why the ancients personified forces of nature. Why Sun-worship may have actually been more important than we realize. Why so many religions seem related in one way or another to the planets themselves and aspects of life itself. Because forces of nature are dynamic and alive, just as we are. It just isn't always easy to understand this without knowing all of the details. But we have so much information in this modern era. And the step between observing the state of your own consciousness in your body and observing consciousness within nature itself is much closer than we might normally consider.

Thus, the phenomena we normally think of as a physical occurrence, may in fact hold deeper secrets pertaining to consciousness, and, the entity - Lucifer.

Wow this is a very interesting post, and so much insight in it. Currently Monotheist relgions have made Lucifer to be the most evil. but interestingly enough in ancient times, the concept of lucifer, Vulcan, Prometeous was that of the fire expert. Ancient Gnostic wisdom dictates that it is thru lucifer that we get thru heaven. Lucifer, Vulcan, the one who stokes the deep fires represents sexual energy that needs to be tamed and channeled in order to achieve enlightenment. but religions have become sex phobic as a way to manipulate people thru guilt and shame of sexuality. The concept of the devil and hell was fabricated as well as a scared tactic. I don't believe there is an "prince of darkness" lurking around hoping for humans to fail so he can burn them. I don't believe that there is an antithesis to God. I believe there are entities of goodness and positivity (but they are not God per se) as there are entities of negativity and darkness, but they are not the devil either. Now the Idea of Jesus as lucifer is very interesting, could Jesus have been the fallen angel who had to work with and thru the luciferian fires of sexuality and ultimately became enlightened and divine. That is very possible and will correlate with a lot of ancient myths of the hero's work thru the underworld. It's even possible as some believe that he was homosexual but attained divinity thru his sexuality like the native american berdaches who are the 2 spirit people and are gay and considered sacred. all of that is possible. Unfortunately religions have betrayed their purpose and have become mere piramid power structures thru which the ones at the "top" excert their power on the ones below and they are concerned primarily in keeping their power at any cost, thru guilt, fear mongering, shaming. If only we realized that NO SINGLE ideology nor religion has all the answers, then we would open our minds to many possibilities and thru self soulsearching we would arrive at greater and higher understandings of ourselves and of the devine. I guess I am also a self-development spiritualist although I never heard the term before. I believe that's the next enxistencial shift in humanity and the path to a new spirituality which will be individually different and unique to each and every single human being. this was an amzing thread thanks to all who participated. I am not trying to change your beliefs to match my own. I respect your beliefs and hope that you respect mine as well. there is no right or wrong , we all have our own unique truth. Peace and love to all beings.
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Old 07-02-2017, 08:11 PM
Sozerius Sozerius is offline
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2heal.all

Excellent Points. I love and appreciate your thoughts.
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