spiritual way of thinking.

[Shivani Devi]

Yeah, what you would call my "Higher Self" just went:

"The Theist knows what the Theist knows and the Atheist knows what the Atheist knows and never the twain shall meet.

Both have 'soul-depth understandings' totally exclusive to their own souls and yet they are not beliefs.

The Theist knows God exists and the Atheist knows God doesn't exist and it was never a question of 'proof' or 'belief' as those are terms the critical and skeptical Atheist uses.

You disagree with Baile because you have experienced different things to Baile and he has experienced different things to you...both are on totally different paths and different levels of soul growth.

Therefore, next time Baile says anything you disagree with, just take it with a grain of salt...ignore it because you know, feel and experience what you do and it serves you very well".

Om Namah Shivaya

[Baile]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

but this is the classic to and fro that Theists and Atheists have been having for millennia.

There's no to and fro. I'm simply answering your questions, from my perspective.

Theists and Atheists are about beliefs: one believes this, the other that. So that's not what I'm speaking of, quite the opposite. I'm identifying the difference between path-specific beliefs that cannot be proven either way, versus truth which stands alone as a recognizable reality for collective humanity.

God is real. That is a belief.
Love is real. That is a truth.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Baile

There's no to and fro. I'm simply answering your questions, from my perspective.

Theists and Atheists are about beliefs: one believes this, the other that. So that's not what I'm speaking of, quite the opposite. I'm identifying the difference between path-specific beliefs that cannot be proven either way, and truth which stands alone as a recognizable reality for collective humanity.

God is real. That is a belief.
Love is real. That is a truth.

"From your perspective" means "from your belief" does it not?

Your perspective - That is a belief.
A "Power greater than our limited egoic understanding of it" - call it God, call it Consciousness, call it Shiva, call it "I AM" call it whatever you want - That is a truth.

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Baile

God is real. That is a belief.
Love is real. That is a truth.

God is Love - That is a direct realisation.

[Baile]

Discerning belief from truth is a kind of learned process; an art form of sorts. There are beliefs, truths, half-beliefs and half-truths and everything in-between. Someone wrote a while back in the Christianity forum that it did in fact matter that Jesus is God, even though the most important part of Christian faith is the message to love one another. That's an example of a statement that is half-belief (Jesus is God) and half-truth (message to love one another).

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Baile

Discerning belief from truth is a kind of learned process; an art form of sorts. There are beliefs, truths, half-beliefs and half-truths and everything in-between. Someone wrote a while back in the Christianity forum that it did in fact matter that Jesus is God, even though the most important part of Christian faith is the message to love one another. That's an example of a statement that is half-belief (Jesus is God) and half-truth (message to love one another).

If you believe that is the case, then it must be true, right?

Belief is what my head knows.
Truth is what my heart knows.

Can it get any simpler than that?

[Baile]

Jesus is God = belief.
Jesus is savior = belief.
Jesus is love = belief.

Jesus is Jesus = truth. And it's true even if you don't believe Jesus existed because, again, it's not about what one chooses to believe. It's about truth. Jesus is Jesus because the Jesus story exists. The Jesus archetype is part of our collective consciousness. It is a truth that cannot be argued or denied.

The problem, always, is when the spiritual-religious individual attempts to impose their path-specific belief-idea on the thing in question. The same applies to atheist belief as well:

God does not exist = belief.

[Shivani Devi]

Oh well, This is just going nowhere fast and I am tired of going around in circles, so I'll let somebody else explain it to you and bid you a fond adieu and hit the hay:

[Shivani Devi]

If everything is love and that is a truth, how can Jesus is love be just a belief?

You're not making any sense to me - but then again, I have bypassed my whole mind and mental processes a while ago now.

Anyway, there's a God who I don't 'believe in' that needs praying to right now...the candle just died and I need a fresh one...then I'm off to bed.

G'nite.

[Baile]

Originally Posted by The Necromancer

Truth is what my heart knows.

Can it get any simpler than that?

If a psychopath believes in their heart that they were born to kill everyone wearing red hats, would that be truth? Or just psychosis? So there must be more to truth.

One can't argue against that which is in a (sane) person's heart. So yes, for that individual, their truth is what is in their heart.

But you see, I keep mentioning collective humanity. Truth that is recognizable to all. "God is real" is not a truth for all. "Love is real" (being treated in a loving way) is a truth for all.

You ask what is simpler. This is what is simpler than what you're stating as truth: "God is real to me. I recognize that is not everyone's truth. It applies to me only."

You are then free to call it your truth, and nobody can argue; nobody can say it is merely belief. It is not belief if it is your truth. But as I said, I'm talking about recognizable collective truth that is true for all. Something different from what you're describing in other words.