Spiritual Forums

Home


Donate!


Articles


CHAT!


Shop


 
Welcome to Spiritual Forums!.

We created this community for people from all backgrounds to discuss Spiritual, Paranormal, Metaphysical, Philosophical, Supernatural, and Esoteric subjects. From Astral Projection to Zen, all topics are welcome. We hope you enjoy your visits.

You are currently viewing our boards as a guest, which gives you limited access to most discussions and articles. By joining our free community you will be able to post messages, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photos, and gain access to our Chat Rooms, Registration is fast, simple, and free, so please, join our community today! !

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, check our FAQs before contacting support. Please read our forum rules, since they are enforced by our volunteer staff. This will help you avoid any infractions and issues.

Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Judaism

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 21-01-2014, 08:02 AM
Adept
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamah
Adept: I understand your opinion makes sense to you from a gnostic hermetic perspective and, as I've stated, that perspective is antithetical to the Jewish understanding of the tree of life. The TREE of life.

Why do you think that name was chosen? A tree has roots; yes it grows, develops, blossoms and to an extent changes but the trunk is solid, and the roots are strong. If your understanding isn't a proper derivation of the source body of knowledge then you are no longer exploring the TREE, you are instead lost in your own ego and understanding, disconnected from the truth.

I'm not gnostic, actually.

I think if what you're doing is working you shouldn't have to defend it to me. But don't be pointing fingers claiming egoism when you're the one with the "my path is correct" mentality. :)

If you're so well versed in Hermeticism, you should realize that being stuck and restricted in the fifth sphere is an ego caused hangup, before the abyss.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 21-01-2014, 07:15 PM
Yamah
Posts: n/a
 
Adept: Calm down. Stop assuming. Stop ego inflating. Stop reading between the lines.

I am not speaking defensively, I am not pointing fingers. I have no 'my path is correct' mentality (no more so than anyone else anyways). I am not attacking you, I am attempting to have a discussion.

The only reason I brought up ego is as a response to your accusation of ego. I'm trying to give a 'tit for tat'. But since we're on the subject, let me elaborate my understanding of Ego.

What is Ego? Ego is the Self. To be lost in ego thus means to be lost in one's self; building up the self's esteem, the self's worth, the self's righteousness, etc. While on a lone path it is very easy to fall into Ego because you have only your self for company. If you do not connect to anything outside of yourself then you are only exploring your own mind. This is why connecting to a group, tradition, teacher, spirit, God or whatever is so important - so that you aren't just lost in your own ego but instead are engaging something else... thus quieting the ego to an extent. If what you are engaging happens to be something true then it is that much more worth while.

Gnostics, Eclectics and other solitaries claim that they are not exploring their own egos but rather the depths of their spirits, their spirit guides, the spiritual world to which they are connected or other realms accessed through meditative or spiritual means. Some of these people may be right but in my experience the vast majority are lost in their own imaginations. Those that ARE accessing some kind of spiritual realm aren't experiencing it purely but are experiencing it through the cloudy lens of their own egos, confirming things that are imagined and intuiting the unconfirmable.

I personally used to be an eclectic until I realized how far into my own ego I had wandered. My desire to find truth, clarity and morality led me down the path I'm currently on. I've met many people, before and after my 'switch' from all kinds of paths. I still have plenty of ego left and I'm aware of it but at least now I know how to identify it.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 21-01-2014, 07:39 PM
Adept
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamah
Adept: Calm down. Stop assuming. Stop ego inflating. Stop reading between the lines.

I am not speaking defensively, I am not pointing fingers. I have no 'my path is correct' mentality (no more so than anyone else anyways). I am not attacking you, I am attempting to have a discussion.

The only reason I brought up ego is as a response to your accusation of ego. I'm trying to give a 'tit for tat'. But since we're on the subject, let me elaborate my understanding of Ego.

What is Ego? Ego is the Self. To be lost in ego thus means to be lost in one's self; building up the self's esteem, the self's worth, the self's righteousness, etc. While on a lone path it is very easy to fall into Ego because you have only your self for company. If you do not connect to anything outside of yourself then you are only exploring your own mind. This is why connecting to a group, tradition, teacher, spirit, God or whatever is so important - so that you aren't just lost in your own ego but instead are engaging something else... thus quieting the ego to an extent. If what you are engaging happens to be something true then it is that much more worth while.

Gnostics, Eclectics and other solitaries claim that they are not exploring their own egos but rather the depths of their spirits, their spirit guides, the spiritual world to which they are connected or other realms accessed through meditative or spiritual means. Some of these people may be right but in my experience the vast majority are lost in their own imaginations. Those that ARE accessing some kind of spiritual realm aren't experiencing it purely but are experiencing it through the cloudy lens of their own egos, confirming things that are imagined and intuiting the unconfirmable.

I personally used to be an eclectic until I realized how far into my own ego I had wandered. My desire to find truth, clarity and morality led me down the path I'm currently on. I've met many people, before and after my 'switch' from all kinds of paths. I still have plenty of ego left and I'm aware of it but at least now I know how to identify it.

But I'm not making assumptions. You are assuming that I am gnostic, that I am unaware of my own ego, even that I need to "calm down" lol. You don't get under my skin, friend. This has turned into a discussion about ego and whether the Tree of Life has objective meaning or not, which is fine by me. We both know the tree, so you know the fifth sphere of strength / restriction. While having a solid grasp on a system is certainly strength, would you not agree that claiming your system is objectively true is also restriction? It is a double edged sphere, a place where the ego is truly tested and you must overcome it. I know that currently my position, getting better every day, but it's a long process. If I was going to make an educated assumption I'd say you're right there with me :)

Nice to have a friends in the same location.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 24-01-2014, 06:15 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,221
  7luminaries's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamah
The Tree of Life is a set of symbols that represent Divine Truths. They have specific, objective meanings and associations.

Though many texts disagree on certain specifics they all agree on the generalities and their disagreements can usually be resolved by understanding that they approach the symbols from different perspectives.

The best example would be with the 4th symbol. The ancient name for it was 'Gedulah' or Greatness and the modern name for it is 'Chesed' or Kindness. Though the name for it has changed all sources agree that this symbol represents the force of Expansion. Nobody says it is a force of Contraction and there is no room whatsoever for saying so. The change of the name can be understood by following the perspectives used in Kabbalah through the ages and their nuances. Nonetheless, the general understanding remains the same.

In Hermetic Kabbalah the tree of life was taken in many different directions through gnosticism, so much so that all the meanings have been skewed. Even basics like how to apply it to the human body (traditionally Chesed is Right, Gevurah is Left; in Hermetic, Chesed is usually Left and Gevurah is usually Right) have been skewed. Many other things have been misinterpretted because the interpretters' understandings didn't have a proper foundation in Torah, Gemarah and other Jewish texts and usually didn't even have a good understanding of the Hebrew language and how it relates to the tree of life (an essential foundation).

Not having a proper foundation leaves the mind floating through the air, reaching conclusions without backing and following assumptions to half-truths which lead to drifting falsehoods. True Knowledge is like a Tree, not a cloud.

Yamah -- I didn't realise this about Hermetics...I don't know as much about it.

Do you know what was the basis given in Hermetics for this switch? Surely they must have understood that they were reversing the traditional association of expansion with greatness/lovingkindness/compassion - right hand of God and contraction with awe/strength/judgment - left hand of God.

I do a lot of healing work with guides that we often call archangels. And so I am particularly curious. I always found it interesting that the archangel representing the force of expansion is so serious and mild in his compassionate and loving manner. (I see them both as male). His intensity is purely in his focus and in his strength of character. In other words, the expansive force of love is very calm, disciplined, and strong. Whereas the contracting force of strength is very intense in purity of emotion and expression of love and truth.

In other words, strength is in love. And love is in strength.
Was this -- or something related -- in any way behind the "switch", which otherwise would be very hard indeed to justify with any clarity? Just wondering.

Adept if you have any information on this, please also feel free to share.
Thank you!

Peace & blessings,
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 24-01-2014, 07:07 PM
Adept
Posts: n/a
 
Honestly I have no idea why they switched it. The left has always been associated with the restrictive aspects. I don't think the distinction works either way though, there is really no consistency through the sides, at least not the way I see the Tree. I chose different, mirroring paths for the passive and active aspects.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 24-01-2014, 07:33 PM
RabbiO RabbiO is offline
Experiencer
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: USA
Posts: 370
 
I must be looking at the wrong material. I have read about the reversal, Yamah's comment was not the first time I have seen this mentioned. However every illustration I have run across from non-Jewish esoteric sources always has the sefirot in the right order and on the proper side of the tree.

I must not get out much!

Peter
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 24-01-2014, 07:35 PM
Adept
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RabbiO
I must be looking at the wrong material. I have read about the reversal, Yamah's comment was not the first time I have seen this mentioned. However every illustration I have run across from non-Jewish esoteric sources always has the sefirot in the right order and on the proper side of the tree.

I must not get out much!

Peter

It's not the sephirot it's simply the label. Usually Chesed is on the right but Hermeticism has it as if the tree is facing you, saying Chesed is on the left.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 24-01-2014, 09:36 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,221
  7luminaries's Avatar
LOL @ RabbiO...hahaha! Me either!

Adept, thank you for responding...maybe Yamah will bring some esoteric info here to light for us

Yama...do you know why the tree &/or the labels are reversed? I talked a bit about it in my above email, but I have no idea if my musings are anywhere near on point and if so, why they wouldn't have footnoted their reasoning somewhere, LOL...but YOU may!

Peace & blessings,
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 26-01-2014, 08:01 AM
Yamah
Posts: n/a
 
I don't know what really happened but I suspect it's like Adept stated, that they just looked at the image as if a person was in there facing you - so the right side of the tree (which they agree is chesed) is applied to the left arm. This was probably done innocently and ignorantly.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 27-01-2014, 02:33 AM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 5,221
  7luminaries's Avatar
LOL...wow what a letdown, hahaha
I suppose that's why there is no concrete explanation given, haha...
as if it was done in ignorance, then the usual reaction by many is just to studiously ignore it...and hope the rest of us don't notice that there was no explanation given

Thanks for your response.
Peace & blessings,
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 06:56 AM.


Powered by vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
(c) Spiritual Forums