Pain and Suffering

Since this thread is about pain and suffering let me comment on one of my main sources of pain and suffering in this life so far, and how it pertains to what is going on here. There is way too much association between the word "spiritual" and the word "good". I have spent the vast majority of my life being the good guy, the guy who does onto other as he would have them do onto me. I turned the other cheek and smiled while people dumped on me. But this is what I and anyone else out there, be it the good guy or good girl, has learned from doing that, it does not get you like behavior back in kind it gets you used and abused! Setting healthy boundaries (which may or may not include anger or frustration if they are stepped on) is all healthy natural and even spiritual behavior. If someone disrespects you, you need to stand up for yourself, if you do not you send a subconscious message to your brain telling yourself that you are worthless and not acceptable enough to be treated with respect. From my 30 years of work in the field of psychology I say with a 99% degree of certainty that many of you are confusing being spiritual with being a dish rag. Then once you have done it enough that your brain has accepted the concept you start to draw only the peoples to you who will treat you that way, and so on and so on the cycle goes down the toilet. I woke up one day when I was at my lowest point to realize I have surrounded myself with takers because I was a giver. As takers they were not going to take care of me. Then I had no one there when I needed them the most. That flipped my switch as far as the doing onto others thing goes. So now if anyone tells me to go back to being a sucker I will take any pain they throw at me VS throw the pain of disrespecting myself again at myself.

Some might say well what is the difference between disrespecting them as a response and them doing it to you? The answer is who started it. If someone else starts it you have all the justification you need to fight back. Fighting back is not starting it, it is having healthy boundaries to what they did to you and that is the difference. If I say "no beliefs without some support for those beliefs, or present it as theories instead" and you do not respect that, I am justified in telling "you" directly that you just made me angry for not respecting my wishes. There is no grey area here, nothing justifies disrespecting the persons request other than if you want an argument or to get dumped on for doing that. If "sound" or anyone else asks me to refrain from having healthy boundaries I will gladly get kicked from any site that asks for that before I let go of that right. End of story!!!

If you want a site full of people who are the nice walk all over me types it would be best to maintain it from Disney Land for a fantasy land like that is the only place it belongs.

[YoursTruly]

Originally Posted by knightofalbion

Maybe it is necessary for the soul in question to experience a 'difficult path' in order to learn certain values so as to advance? Nothing teaches you compassion, empathy and humanity for example than having 'drunk from a bitter cup' yourself.

The massacred Native Americans already had all of those qualities and values you listed.

My, my, my--no disrespect intended, but what an arrogant fellow you are.........everyone has the right to post whatever irregardless of what you "requested" in your initial post........this "is" a spiritual forum, and this mostly consists of beliefs, theories and personal experiences that cannot be proved.........If you need proof that the fire is hot, put your hand in it--now "you" know that the fire is hot, but nobody else will know unless they put their own hand in the fire.........Why would you believe what Dr. Newton wrote as these were the experiences of him and his patients--not yours........you are making very little sense and have led the thread in your direction the whole time......

[sound]

Originally Posted by Gsquared61

For "sound" no I won't refrain from using the word "you", I am not mired down in political correctness. If someone does something to me I will point them out, end of story. I am sorry if that offends you but then again I am about the freedom of speech not the political correct thing. Everyone knows who you are talking about anyway, like do you really think that removing the "you" makes it less transparent? And you just addressed me as "you" to say don't say "you" is that not hypocritical? Is it more OK for you to do it, to make the point that I do it? That seems worse to me because I am not making a point of saying I don't believe in doing that then doing it anyway!!

Double exclamation marks lol ... I wonder what that signifies? ...
I didnt say 'dont say you' ... I suggested a simple exercise ... perhaps you are not up to it, or dont care to try to understand the reason behind it. Its about owning ones words and can have a remarkable influence around what one claims is truth for others when those same words are applied to self ... you are not the first person to reject the exercise lol ...

as far as my use of the word 'you' ... i used it directly to address you ... I didnt use it to claim that my truth is your truth ...

Originally Posted by Gsquared61

Thanks for clearing up the "master" thing those that way really bothering me.

I am thinking you made a typo here ... not too sure what you mean ...

[sound]

Originally Posted by Gsquared61

If "sound" or anyone else asks me to refrain from having healthy boundaries I will gladly get kicked from any site that asks for that before I let go of that right. End of story!!!

How did you get that out of the few words we have exchanged?

[in progress]

Originally Posted by Gsquared61

anyone else asks me to refrain from having healthy boundaries

Well this is a question in itself. Just what are healthy boundaries?

Anger tells you that your boundaries have been crossed. There is nothing wrong with that. In this case anger is healthy. Responding while still in a reactive state is where the trouble begins. I know it's gotten me into trouble on countless occasions. If you fight back in anger you will almost assuredly get an angry response in return because you've just now crossed the other person's boundaries as well. They have every right to be angry with you now.

So my take is to wait until my emotional reaction has cooled then respond. But I would have to be aware of my emotional state first and realize I would need to cool down instead of react, react, react. It takes practice to become aware of one's emotional state at all times. I'm certainly not there yet myself but I've gotten better.

And I agree that some people think being spiritual means you can never get angry or say no. It's just not true. This is where compassion comes in. You can understand what the person is going through and love them but that doesn't mean you have to to be drawn into their drama. You can say "no thanks", I'm not going there with you.

Hi GSquared,

Very sorry to hear about your sadness. That's really hard, witnessing others in deep suffering. I've been there too, many times.

There's not a simple answer to your question that anyone can offer. Anything anyone else says is just their perspective anyway. What matters is what you find to be true for yourself.

The truth is, you don't have to believe in God. No one has to believe in anything. So how and why are you wanting others to prove that God exists to you, if you have already concluded there is no God?

If you are wanting for others to prove to you through logic that God exists, that will simply never happen. Because it isn't possible. Not in the way you're thinking. Give it up. If you require logic to prove that God exists, you will never find it that way. You just won't. No matter what someone says, you will find something to argue exactly the opposite, feel baffled and upset inside, and hence, nothing is accomplished and you will continue to feel as you do. Which is perfectly fine, by the way...


But you know, lack of logic does not mean something does not exist. To you, perhaps that is the way everything should work. Even things that have no logic, like art, music, love. Those exist, do they not? Can they be "proven" to someone else through logic? Not really. They just are.

God exists (or doesn't) for each person individually. What someone else thinks or claims is of little use to you. And I have to say, if you ask for peoples' input and only have unkind things to say in return about how they believe, well, what's the point in that? You'll continue thinking as you do and it will just make people not want to talk to you anymore.

I am not sure that is what you really want either, yes? You want to dialog about this. That's why you asked. I'm just saying it is nice if you don't slam peoples' answers if they don't work for you. If you just write everything off as "doesn't compute", you will never get anywhere with what you're asking.

You've already found your answer anyway. A belief in no God. Because God simply cannot exist if it does not share your ideas of logic, right? Well, to me, it actually sounds like you think God should follow your ideas of what logical and fairness are. And when things do not go the way you think is right, then it means God does not exist. There. End of debate.

That's ok. It's a very human reaction to not understanding how and why things happen as they do. But is it the only possible perception here? Are you more right or brilliant in thought than the next person in your ideas about God? Umm...well, that's a whole other conversation. And ironically, it has almost nothing to do with the existence of God.

And you know, it really is OK for you to say you don't think God exists. But it doesn't make you better or worse or smarter or more spiritual than anyone else. It's what you believe. Why debate this? Others simply won't agree and they have their reasons that are just as valid as yours.

Again, sorry to hear of your sadness. You really cared about these people. You have a kind and loving heart, and I am sure that was difficult.

Orca

[sound]

What child blames its parent for every aspect of its life, well into old age, and beyond? ... bring on the wrath ...who gives a hoot? ... thread ownership? Is this a Yourspace thread?

Originally Posted by Gsquared61

My biggest obstacle to accepting the existence of a god is Pain and Suffering. I have watched very kind and loving people go through hell when they died and while they were alive. And I can not reconcile the existence of a god with this kind of suffering. Yeah I know "god works in mysterious ways" but I don't buy that, I think it is a weak substitution for a real and rational explanation. If what god does, does not make sense to us, then it is not sensible. I watched several people I loved dearly go through hell and I do not think I can ever forgive a god that does that to kind and caring people. Is god a sadist, is god a kid with a magnifying glass and we the ants? I have seen things that suggest there is something more to this life than what we normally perceive and to me that suggest a god, but then I try to work that in with what I have seen in the way of suffering in the world and it does not compute. It is like there might be a god but that it does not care about us in the least, except in the way of it's own entertainment. This suggest to me that perhaps this is a simulation as many scientists are suggesting now and our idea of god is simply the intelligence that created the simulation. It appears it is no more caring about it's simulation than we are about ours when we play a game of The Sims and create our simulation. Can anyone actually address this with some sense of reason and logic without the usual old standby "just because" kind of answers?