The Crucifixion was The Devil's trick to catch our attention.

[peteyzen]

Dear Mathew, by saying Mohammed (pbuhn) is the last prophet of god they are saying their message is gods latest and most accurate and therefore correct. By saying he is the last prophet they preclude their followers from ever opening themselves to whoever god sends later. It's another form of control

[peteyzen]

Dear heartsmart I was pointing out that, compared to Palestine, Israel has the power the military superiority, and at whim they can take palestines land and invade at will.

Lets keep this away from Israel vs. Palestine please.

petey: Absolutely, human ego is something of a problem in this world - I think every religion or path worth anything acknowledges that.

The fact that there are many paths to God is also something I think is pretty apparent and any religion or path that denies that is somewhat flawed. I mean, there were 'holy prophets' before any religion was founded (in the Torah it mentions a few that preceeded Abraham; Noah, for one, wasn't Jewish because Judaism didn't exist yet). In fact, the only religion I'm familiar with that outright denies the possibility of an alternate path leading to God is Christianity. Judaism certainly acknowledges the possibility and so do some strands of Islam. Taoism, Buddhism and the other eastern religions certainly do. Christianity pretty clearly states though that 'you can only reach God through our saviour'.

[Honza]

Originally Posted by Yamah

Christianity pretty clearly states though that 'you can only reach God through our saviour'.

That is interesting. What is the reason behind that?

Christ is not considered 'owned' by anybody - even the Church. The Church grew up around Christ's message that He can save Humanity. But Christ can save *any* human that turns to Him; even Hindus, Muslims etc.

People get called Christian if they believe in Christ. But all a Christian is doing is admitting to themselves that they cannot reach God alone and that they need Christ's help to be redeemed.

To many people God seems *very* far away. Christ reaches out to us and says you can come through me.

Christ has a special place in the whole of spirituality/religion because He is the ONLY being who ever died to SAVE others spiritually and bring them towards God. No one else has ever done that.

So some people decide that Christ is the only one who CAN, because He is the only one who ever BOTHERED.

[peteyzen]

well said Honza,
Christ was sent here, as a part of god, to be a unique, faster, safer, conduit for our growth back to the divine. He is not alone, there are and have been other avatars with the same mission.

[charly233]

Originally Posted by Honza

To many people God seems *very* far away. Christ reaches out to us and says you can come through me.

I was redeemed when I asked Jesus into my heart as my personal savior and Lord. Since then I have gradually realized that I never needed to be "saved"; that I was always already saved.

I achieved redemption or enlightenment or whatever through my own spiritual insight. But I could not have managed it entirely on my own. I needed Jesus to give me that helping hand.

[Mathew James]

Originally Posted by charly233

I was redeemed when I asked Jesus into my heart as my personal savior and Lord.

why is this type of stuff in the Judaism section ?

[charly233]

Originally Posted by Mathew James

why is this type of stuff in the Judaism section ?

Sorry. The thread is about the crucifixion so I felt that my comment would be okay.

Sometimes my xian side comes out rather strongly and I find myself sounding almost like a fundamentalist.

Of course there are many routes to God and enlightenment. There are many different avatars and some people reach God directly without need of an avatar of any kind.

Originally Posted by Mathew James

why is this type of stuff in the Judaism section ?

Why is Christ's death being discussed on a Jewish sub-forum? Perhaps the original thread would have been better posted in the Christian section, and those Christians could have responded accordingly. However, it is here discussed on a Jewish sub-forum.

Opinions are bound to be biased, I really do not see the point. As a traditional Roman Catholic, I shouldn't have waded in, but I took offence to Jesus being likened to the Devil and the whole saving act of Christianity being turned on its head.

That's my final thought.

Pax.

I think because the Jews are the only ones who really ever criticize Christianity from a knowledgeable position. Atheists criticize Christianity as part of Religion in general; Jews criticize Christianity from it's foundation - which happens to be Judaism - and the basic principles that Christianity has developed from its foundation.

"So some people decide that Christ is the only one who CAN, because He is the only one who ever BOTHERED."
In my experience and observations there is no set rule or method for achieving enlightenment, awakening, salvation or whatever you want to call it. Furthermore I don't think that anyone can do it for you. It's something that has to come from within. Of course, it can be inspired from the outside but it doesn't happen there.

What is this thing though, this state of being called enlightenment/awakening/salvation? I propose that it is more elusive that one might think and that there are many 'false paths' as well as many 'true paths'.

First one must understand the process of altering a person's perspective of reality. This process is used a great deal in brainwashing, converting and enlightening.

There are three steps to changing a person's perspective: (1) Shatter the old, (2) Bring a person to a state of delerium through emotions or mental confusion (3) Implant a new perspective.

This is a process I have observed many times, most notably during my time with the Hare Krsna - they are masters of this process and, indeed, one can say that their whole lives are based around this process. How they do it is by (1) talking about the flaws of society, materialism and physicality - make the rat race seem meaningless and empty. (2a) Either continue speaking to a person about the nonsensical nature of society until they get confused -or- (2b) whip them into an alpha-wave high through song and dance (3) offer them an elusive and subtle goal based on their experiences in steps 1 and 2 (using what is now already slightly familiar to replace what is shattered).

This process exists in the conversion process between any two world views. The thing is that once a person's worldview is set in any direction the process must be started anew from the beginning in order to change it and, in general, people are reluctant to change - especially more than once. Ironically, the whole process feels very good and every time it happens a person experiences a kind of high (I believe it's a state of hyperawareness similar to what can happen after PTSD where adrenaline is produced more readily, combined with the fact that everything will seem new and exciting since everything is observed from a different perspective).

The process of reaching enlightenment must go through this same rebooting process. The worldview that replaces the previous perspective must, however, be an 'enlightened' perspective... and the question inevitably must be asked... which perspective is enlightened? Is MY perspective enlightened? If other people have gone through the same process and believe they are enlightened, how do I know they aren't more right than I am? Does enlightenment even exist or are we all just going around in circles?