Observer vs Observed

[MikeS80]

JustASimpleGuy, sovereign citizens get in trouble with the government and with the law, rightfully so because sovereign citizens are not authentic, they only imitate the authentic. The government is able to tell who is authentic or not. The constitutional republic form of government works in harmony with you being present in the right here and now non-duality moment. Non-duality in the context of law and government is equality (equality means everyone is equal to you and no one is above or better than you, this means the policeman, politicians, authority etc etc are equal to you/the same as you) and in order to have equality as most of the world is today, there must be individual god given unalienable rights. Collectivism/community based society, including communism only will work in a utopia, we are far from living in a utopia. Individual rights protect the individual thus meaning all individuals-everyone.

How about instead of you being presumptuous and prejudice, you learn about this truth from and for your own self?

Originally Posted by MikeS80

How is that doing what the ego desires? That does not make any sense what so ever. As I mentioned many times before, the ego wants/desires to think/have thoughts about this or that is good/bad or positive/negative.

A part of you clings to a thought arising from memory that laws you consider infringements to your freedom are undesirable. Bad. Negative. Such laws cannot touch your true non-dualistic nature but only your dualistic body-mind, hence I conclude you are firmly and fully embedded in duality and totally ignorant of that obvious fact.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I do not need to read a book to learn and to know about non-duality.

Except the one book by Jiddu Krishnamurti you already admitted reading and informing your interpretation of spirituality. By the way you also advocate his work in your sig.

Originally Posted by MikeS80

JustASimpleGuy, sovereign citizens get in trouble with the government and with the law, rightfully so because sovereign citizens are not authentic, they only imitate the authentic. The government is able to tell who is authentic or not. The constitutional republic form of government works in harmony with you being present in the right here and now non-duality moment. Non-duality in the context of law and government is equality (equality means everyone is equal to you and no one is above or better than you, this means the policeman, politicians, authority etc etc are equal to you/the same as you) and in order to have equality as most of the world is today, there must be individual god given unalienable rights. Collectivism/community based society, including communism only will work in a utopia, we are far from living in a utopia. Individual rights protect the individual thus meaning all individuals-everyone.

Who are you trying to convince, me or yourself?

I can assure you, the courts couldn't care less whether you label yourself a sovereign citizen or free person. What they do care about is your actions, and more specifically your disregard for some of the laws of the land.

But hey, being that you're living and experiencing non-duality it won't make a difference as your existence, consciousness, bliss will be unchanged whether living on your hundreds of acres with nature or in a 6'x10' cell with criminals.



Honestly, I don't care about your politics or your law-breaking per se, but I do care enough about the potential negative and devastating consequences your misinterpretation of both law and spirituality seem to be leading you.

It's funny because I originally brought up taxes, driver's license, insurance, etc... as things requiring deliberate thinking and relating to your philosophy of non-duality. It was you who then injected your sovereign citizen/free person politics into it and as you didn't subscribe to those laws no thinking about them was required. Oh, except the thinking on how to avoid them.



You're going to do what you want to do but the big questions are which "you" is the doer and and from which "you" does the want arise?

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

I do not need to read a book to learn and to know about non-duality. I learn about and know about non-duality in my real and concrete physical life that I live in the present moment, the right here and right now.

Can you share what your experiential breakthrough moment was and how you came to "know about non-duality"?

My breakthrough came during meditation before I had any idea of what non-duality was all about and it was mind-boggling. That obviously led to more investigation. Many people who talk about non-duality address it from an intellectual level without really being established in it "right here and right now".

Your comments suggest depth and focusing on "Know Yourself" has been my pathless path as well.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Can you share what your experiential breakthrough moment was and how you came to "know about non-duality"?

Hello Still Waters, You are right, finding out about non-duality and duality for me was just an experiment at first to see/test if knowing myself is the answer, the truth or not, then the know myself experiment snowballed until knowing myself was not an experiment anymore, knowing myself became a part of me and my life on the deepest level. I learned that the only way to come to/ perceive non-duality is to know myself, meaning know my ego, my I, my thinker, not suppress or kill my ego, my I, my thinker. I first learned about non-duality by reading a few articles and watched a few videos of Jiddu Krishnamurti (including the articles I linked to in my signature). I say of instead of by Jiddu Krishnamurti because Jiddu Krishnamurti did not write any articles. His articles and videos where taken from the talks he did.

I learned not to interact with my thoughts by thinking this or that is good/bad or positive/negative from one of Jiddu Krishnamurti's video on freedom from fear. Not thinking this way convinced me that not thinking that way balances/aligns/integrates the ego, the I, the thinker with non-duality/unconditional love. I also learned from thinking that way is/was the cause of my own personal duality, suffering, sorrow, fears, conditional love, conflicts, contradictions etc etc. I also learned that being honest with yourself about yourself while not judging yourself is very important. All of the above are the reasons why I post about non-duality and duality. I did not know non-duality on a conscious/awareness level either, I did know unconditional love on a conscious/awareness level but, I still had my own personal inner duality, suffering, sorrow, fears, conditional love, that created inner conflicts, contradictions and etc inside of me. An example of this inner conflict and contradiction that I had, is when I read a book on how love overcomes/conquers everything including fear. The author of this book did not tell you what this love is that conquers/overcomes everything, the author just used the word love so, I thought or more accurately, I assumed the author was writing about conditional love when the author was not so obviously writing about unconditional love. I post about conditional love and about unconditional love so other people do not make that same mistake I made about love. Plus, making the connections to conditional love and to unconditional love blew my mind.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

My breakthrough came during meditation before I had any idea of what non-duality was all about and it was mind-boggling. That obviously led to more investigation. Many people who talk about non-duality address it from an intellectual level without really being established in it "right here and right now".

Yes it was mind boggling for me too. There was a time or two where it got overwhelming for my physical brain, in a good way. I know what it is like not being able to be in the present moment-in the right here and right now. I tried to read the Power Of Now book a few years ago, I couldn't read that book because I did not want to be in the right here and now, I was never content with the right here and right now, I was either thinking of the past, or I was daydreaming about the right here and right now or I was daydreaming about the future. By being/living in the right here and right now, I learned that the physical, the mental and the spiritual effect each other/are connected/are one, they are not separate from each other.

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Your comments suggest depth and focusing on "Know Yourself" has been my pathless path as well.

Yes, knowing myself is the most important thing to do. By knowing myself you will know non-duality/unconditional love. You and I are proof of that.

[MikeS80]

I double posted on accident.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

A part of you clings to a thought arising from memory that laws you consider infringements to your freedom are undesirable. Bad. Negative. Such laws cannot touch your true non-dualistic nature but only your dualistic body-mind, hence I conclude you are firmly and fully embedded in duality and totally ignorant of that obvious fact.

There you go around in circles again by taking what I say out of context by presuming and assuming things with your limited and incomplete knowledge of the law...Like you believing there is only civil law in America and to hell with god given unalienable rights just to start an argument, even after I posted the supporring U.S law/codes that backup my claim. In essense, you are saying that equality, (equality in law means everyone is equal/the same as each other) is duality and is being self centered, that logic and reasoning does not make a whole lot of sense. I do not cling to any thoughts all the time. I simply learned what my options of law that I am able to follow, then I simply made my mind up one time about it, I only think about it when I have to (like now, when I am talking to you about it), I do not think about it 24/7/365. I have the option of either obeying Caesar's man/government made civil law or I can obey god's law, which is american common law. The government is able to take your government granted Civil rights/privileges away from you. You forfeit your inalienable god given rights (full liability) to receive civil rights, the privilege of limited liability. The government can not take away my inalienable god given rights because god granted me those rights, not the government. The government can only control (via civil law-codes/statues and etc), regulate, tax etc etc only what government creates and that is Civil law-codes, statues, ordinances etc etc.

My non-duality/unconditional love nature is inside of/part of my physical body and the non-duality/unconditional love is the consciousness that comes from behind my eyes , meaning they are not separate from each other, so yes laws do effect the non-duality/unconditional love/consciousness that comes from the back of my eyes/brain thus is inside my physical body. Whatever happens to me in my physical life in the right here and now present moment (like laws), happens to or effects me in my non-duality spiritual and mental life. My physical life, of I being in the right here and right now in the physical universe, my spiritual life and mental life are not seperate from each other, all three effect each other and are one and the the same. Sure being locked up in jail or prison because you broke some code or statue that says you committed a victimless crime will not effect your inner peace of non-duality but who wants to go to jail or prison, when they do not need or want to? and why go to jail or prison by commiting a victimless crime when you are able to lawfully and legaly prevent yourself from going to jail/prison by committing a victimless crime in the first place? The only person who wants to go to jail or prison is a person who wants the comfort of knowing he will have a place to sleep and have 3 meals a day. There is no real difference between you and the person who would rather be in jail or prison for the comfort of him knowing he will have a free place to sleep and have 3 free meals a day.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Except the one book by Jiddu Krishnamurti you already admitted reading and informing your interpretation of spirituality. By the way you also advocate his work in your sig.

You are comparing apples to oranges with your limited and incomplete knowledge about Jiddu Krishnamurti. Jiddu Krishnamurti teaches you to learn to know yourself, which eventually leads you to discover non-duality on your own. The book you mentioned to me tells you what to believe about non-duality, the universe etc etc. Where is the rest of the comment you quoted from and why did you not quote the entire comment? Hmm, that is very suspicious.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Who are you trying to convince, me or yourself?

I am not trying to convince anything to anyone. If you did not want to know, you should not have asked the question you asked me. See how that works?

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

I can assure you, the courts couldn't care less whether you label yourself a sovereign citizen or free person. What they do care about is your actions, and more specifically your disregard for some of the laws of the land.

This comment shows your contradiction and your ignorance of the law so you can not assure anything. And a supreme court judge will tell you ignorance is not an excuse. Civil law is not law of the land. Even the constitution of the USA is not the law of the land. The constitution of the USA limits the government so the constitution is the law for government, no one else. The law of the land in america is american common law.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Honestly, I don't care about your politics or your law-breaking per se, but I do care enough about the potential negative and devastating consequences your misinterpretation of both law and spirituality seem to be leading you.

You are not being honest, because If you did not want to know, you would not have asked the question you asked me.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

It's funny because I originally brought up taxes, driver's license, insurance, etc... as things requiring deliberate thinking and relating to your philosophy of non-duality. It was you who then injected your sovereign citizen/free person politics into it and as you didn't subscribe to those laws no thinking about them was required. Oh, except the thinking on how to avoid them

. Of course, you asking me a question about that stuff, causes me to have to think about that stuff as I am answering your question, so the point you are trying to make is a contradiction, false and pointless. Did you ask me that question to get me talking about that stuff, so you are able to say that I think about that stuff so I must be in duality?

No it it not funny because you perceive things by assuming, presuming, with contradiction and with the limited and incomplete knowledge you have.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

You're going to do what you want to do but the big questions are which "you" is the doer and and from which "you" does the want arise?

I have only one ego/me/I/thinker

Mike,

You seem to go so far as implying you are beyond morality. That sounds like justification for doing whatever you desire, and I posit that can only arise from ego and is the diametric opposite of non-duality. Besides if unconditional love is superior to conditional love and certainly superior to hate isn't that based on a recognition of good and bad? If not then why is unconditional love to be desired over say, conditional love (for one's own desires and benefit) and not caring about your neighbor to the point of reneging on your civic obligations your neighbor depends upon being fulfilled so you can indulge in your own desires?

Originally Posted by MikeS80

There is zero non-duality in morals-thinking this or that is good /positive or bad/evil/negative. In fact morals are duality themselves.

You say you contract with local police and fire. You do that because it directly benefits you should you require their services.

You avoid property taxes because you don't see a benefit and couldn't care less about helping to fund Medicare, Medicaid and local education because those services don't benefit you and you have no concern about others depending on those services.


What I'm saying is it's all about you and for you and how your body-mind can thrive and without regard to the effect on others, devoid of any ethical considerations. That simply isn't non-dualism. It's not unity. It's placing all emphasis on your temporal aspect and as far as I can tell no emphasis on your Divine aspect.

Hint: Your Divine aspect couldn't care less about avoiding the rules and laws of men for the benefit of your temporal aspect, and doubly so since that avoidance comes at the expense of others. In fact if your Divine aspect had any say in the matter you would be honoring your civic obligations and then some. This alone indicates you are solidly enmeshed in duality and to the point of embracing 'victimless' crime as not being in conflict with a spiritual path. I suppose you haven't considered you might just be the biggest victim, especially in the spiritual sense.

The more you argue your interpretation of U.S. Code supports your actions, the further removed you are from understanding non-dualism and even further from living it. And again, you brought this up first as a point of braggadocio when it had no bearing whatsoever on the discussion aside from deflecting the question I posed about your theory on non-duality and not thinking. Considering you injected it into the discussion it's fair for me to reference this and juxtapose it to my interpretation of actions one would associate with an embrace of non-duality.

You can go on and on and on but this is the end for me. You're on your path and you'll have to reap what you sow, both in the temporal and the spiritual realms. Good luck.

By the way, the best I can decipher is your philosophy of "non-duality" is nothing more than mindfulness.

"Self-discipline, although difficult, and not always easy while combating negative emotions, should be a defensive measure. At least we will be able to prevent the advent of negative conduct dominated by negative emotion. That is 'shila', or moral ethics. Once we develop this by familiarizing ourselves with it, along with mindfulness and conscientiousness, eventually that pattern and way of life will become a part of our own life." ~ Dalai Lama

Though I can't find it, he has spoken of the pitfalls of mindfulness without an ethical foundation. Alone it can further either good or bad. Mindfulness alone, living in the present moment or the now and without a solid grounding in ethics and morality simply is not a guaranteed spiritual path and in fact can lead to the exact opposite.

[MikeS80]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Mike,

You seem to go so far as implying you are beyond morality. That sounds like justification for doing whatever you desire, and I posit that can only arise from ego and is the diametric opposite of non-duality. Besides if unconditional love is superior to conditional love and certainly superior to hate isn't that based on a recognition of good and bad? If not then why is unconditional love to be desired over say, conditional love (for one's own desires and benefit) and not caring about your neighbor to the point of reneging on your civic obligations your neighbor depends upon being fulfilled so you can indulge in your own desires?

I am not implying anything, you are implying that about me with your limited, and incomplete knowledge about me. I could care a less about being above anything because implying such a thing like being above something/someone promotes duality/inequility, but you implying that about me shows me that about you. What you see in the present moment, in the right here and now is a mirror about yourself. Morality has nothing to do what-so-ever with non-duality/unconditional love/peace and harmony. The ego/duality creates morality. Morality causes fear, guilt, conflicts and contradictions. What is morality? Morality is good vs bad/right vs wrong. When you think something is bad or wrong like having a thought about sex/lust, you feel bad/guilty about having that thought about sex/lust because you think having a thought about sex/lust is wrong a bad/negative thought. Religion and spirituality uses morality as an excuse to exist (I am not saying that its good or bad, I am neutral about it because its just the way it is) so Instead of thinking something is bad/negative/wrong look and see and be fully aware of what that something really is and what really causes that something. Morality keeps your full awareness blind to that something.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

You say you contract with local police and fire. You do that because it directly benefits you should you require their services.

And your point is? I do not give up my inalienable god given right by contracting with my local police and fire departments, nor do I infringe on anyone else's god given inalienable rights by contracting with my local fire and police departments. American common law is: if there is no injured party or if I do not infringe on anyone one's god given inalienable rights/private property there is no crime. Again that goes with my spirituality perfectly because again the physical universe, meaning the right here and right now, the spiritual and the mental are not separate from each other and all three effects each other because they are connected to each other.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

You avoid property taxes because you don't see a benefit and couldn't care less about helping to fund Medicare, Medicaid and local education because those services don't benefit you and you have no concern about others depending on those services.

I do not avoid property taxes. I am not responsible for paying property tax, so I do not pay property taxes, it is as simple as that. Your last sentence is based on morality and is meant to make me feel guilty. see how morality works? Trying to make me feel guilty is futile.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

What I'm saying is it's all about you and for you and how your body-mind can thrive and without regard to the effect on others, devoid of any ethical considerations. That simply isn't non-duality. It's not unity. It's placing all importance on your temporal aspect and as far as I can tell no importance on your Divine aspect.

No it is not all about me, my I, my ego. it is all about the non-duality/unconditional love/peace, and harmony that is inside my physical body and it is all about being neutral and equal to things and to my fellow human beings. You intellectualizing with your limited and incomplete knowledge is preventing you from knowing that from within yourself.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Hint: Your Divine aspect couldn't care less about avoiding the rules and laws of men for the benefit of your temporal aspect, and doubly so since that avoidance comes at the expense of others. In fact if your Divine aspect had any say in the matter you would be honoring your civic obligations and then some. This alone indicates you are solidly enmeshed in duality and to the point of embracing 'victimless' crime as a valid spiritual path. I suppose you haven't considered you might just be the biggest victim, especially in the spiritual sense.

You are right, my inner wisdom/intelligence/intuition could care a less about morality which breeds fear, guilt etc etc. How did you get I embrace victimless crimes with what I posted, when I said civil law-codes, statues etc etc create victimless crimes? I find it very convenient and highly suspicious that you did not quote something I posted to validate that claim.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

The more you argue your interpretation of U.S. Code supports your actions, the further removed you are from understanding non-duality and even further from living it. And again, you brought this up first as a point of braggadocio when it had no bearing whatsoever on the discussion aside from deflecting the question I posed about your theory on non-duality and not thinking. Considering you injected it into the discussion it's fair for me to reference this and juxtapose it to my interpretation of actions one would associate with an embrace of non-duality.

You think? That was the whole point about quoting the law/us statues. I did not deflect a question you asked by answering that question and by rebutting your false claims, assumptions and presumptions. The issue is that you did not like/understand the truthful answer I gave you to that question.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

You can go on and on and on but this is the end for me. You're on your path and you'll have to reap what you sow, both in the temporal and the spiritual realm. Good luck.

Good luck to you.

[MikeS80]

Non-duality is not at all about what is right or wrong/good or bad/positive or negative. Non-duality is all about being conscious/aware of the present moment, the right here and right now in the present moment, the right here and right now.

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by MikeS80

Hello Still Waters, You are right, finding out about non-duality and duality for me was just an experiment at first to see/test if knowing myself is the answer, the truth or not, then the know myself experiment snowballed until knowing myself was not an experiment anymore, knowing myself became a part of me and my life on the deepest level. I learned that the only way to come to/ perceive non-duality is to know myself, meaning know my ego, my I, my thinker, not suppress or kill my ego, my I, my thinker. I first learned about non-duality by reading a few articles and watched a few videos of Jiddu Krishnamurti (including the articles I linked to in my signature). I say of instead of by Jiddu Krishnamurti because Jiddu Krishnamurti did not write any articles. His articles and videos where taken from the talks he did.

I learned not to interact with my thoughts by thinking this or that is good/bad or positive/negative from one of Jiddu Krishnamurti's video on freedom from fear. Not thinking this way convinced me that not thinking that way balances/aligns/integrates the ego, the I, the thinker with non-duality/unconditional love. I also learned from thinking that way is/was the cause of my own personal duality, suffering, sorrow, fears, conditional love, conflicts, contradictions etc etc. I also learned that being honest with yourself about yourself while not judging yourself is very important. All of the above are the reasons why I post about non-duality and duality. I did not know non-duality on a conscious/awareness level either, I did know unconditional love on a conscious/awareness level but, I still had my own personal inner duality, suffering, sorrow, fears, conditional love, that created inner conflicts, contradictions and etc inside of me. An example of this inner conflict and contradiction that I had, is when I read a book on how love overcomes/conquers everything including fear. The author of this book did not tell you what this love is that conquers/overcomes everything, the author just used the word love so, I thought or more accurately, I assumed the author was writing about conditional love when the author was not so obviously writing about unconditional love. I post about conditional love and about unconditional love so other people do not make that same mistake I made about love. Plus, making the connections to conditional love and to unconditional love blew my mind.

Yes it was mind boggling for me too. There was a time or two where it got overwhelming for my physical brain, in a good way. I know what it is like not being able to be in the present moment-in the right here and right now. I tried to read the Power Of Now book a few years ago, I couldn't read that book because I did not want to be in the right here and now, I was never content with the right here and right now, I was either thinking of the past, or I was daydreaming about the right here and right now or I was daydreaming about the future. By being/living in the right here and right now, I learned that the physical, the mental and the spiritual effect each other/are connected/are one, they are not separate from each other.


Yes, knowing myself is the most important thing to do. By knowing myself you will know non-duality/unconditional love. You and I are proof of that.

Thank you for sharing. We are virtually in complete agreement. You wrote "I learned that the only way to come to/ perceive non-duality is to know myself, meaning know my ego, my I, my thinker, not suppress or kill my ego, my I, my thinker." While I try to avoid the terminology of "the only way", I do agree with you that this is "the only way" but I often qualify it when speaking by saying "the only way for me".

The reason I asked those questions of you is that I am meeting with a small group of three young dedicated fellows on Wednesday evening who are focused on the self-inquiry dialogues of Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramana Maharshi. The focus will be on HOW to directly experience non-duality and not just understand it from philosophical and intellectual perspectives.

While I do many of the "Know Yourself" practices that you mentioned in your post, I had the added "good fortune" (in retrospect) to have a NDE in my early 20s which completely changed my perception of the Reality (out-of-body, remote vision, complete symptom-free emergence from a 3-day "irreversible coma", etc.). Then, there were meditative happenings relevant to non-duality that were mind-boggling and totally inconsistent with my understanding of the Reality at that time. This led me to investigate more. I started reading about this stuff AFTER the fact and then focused on becoming firmly established in that state through methodologies similar to what you wrote in your post.

Thank you so much for sharing.