Observer vs Observed

Originally Posted by davidsun

Anyone can consciously experience/know the Isness of Being if s/he 'focuses; her/his 'consciousness' on doing so.

What practice(s) facilitate your experience of simply Being?

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

What practice(s) facilitate your experience of simply Being?

Paying attention without being mentally or emotionally 'pre-occupied' - in my case, ordinary meditation (say by way of 'clearing' my mind and heart by steadily focus on my breathing) is enough to initiate said kind of 'experience'.

A more 'general' statement (para 6:51 from my book):

The ‘solution’, in each and every case, lies in becoming aware of how fixation on particular ideals and derivative experience of disappointment and dissatisfaction cut us off from perceiving, relishing and creatively dealing with the exquisite Isness of Being and Becoming that is Ever-Present and Ever-Ongoing in ourselves, others and the world around us, and therefore diligently identifying and choosing to emotionally decathect from and transcend such personal fancies and aversions and associated conditioning. Only if and as we stop holding onto particular likes and dislikes and jettison negative attitudes deriving from consequent experience of disappointment and dissatisfaction do we rediscover and revive what was lost when we emerged from the simplicity of naiveté — the paradisiacal state enjoyed by Adam and Eve before they ‘fell’ from grace, in the Garden of Eden.

I think the foregoing usually requires that the 'stage' for that to be 'successfully' accomplished first be 'set' by particular kind of experience: the 'ego-death' and 'spiritual rebirth' which Jesus referenced in "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5) Everyone's process in this regard is necessarily unique, I made the following 'general' statement regarding it in paragraphs 6:59-62 of my book"

Fortunately, the very severity of the crises those who are errant bring upon themselves and subject others around them to also serves as a catalyst for positive change in those who have as yet underutilized capacity to acknowledge and constructively relate to the truth. Whether such eventuality is welcomed or not, sooner or later, particularly after repeated or lengthy trial and tribulation, when their strength is depleted, beleaguered individuals experience a state of psychospiritual ‘bankruptcy’, in which the hope of attaining idealization-fantasy fulfillment 'dies', and they starkly see that even seeking to compensate themselves for such unfulfillment by means of substitute desire-gratification dooms them to endless effort, if not utter frustration and futility.

They enter a phase, poetically alluded to as ‘the dark night of the soul’, characterized initially by feelings of upset and anger, then despair, followed by sadness, depression and, ultimately, resignation, in which yearning and striving for what they desire, because satisfaction continually eludes them, finally cease. Sense of purpose is lost. What they do or don’t do then matters little to them, if at all. Life seems a cruel joke, if not meaningless. The process continues, generally in waves and spurts, till they fully accept the fact that they cannot have things be the way them want them to be (or not be the way they want them not to be). In the end, truly humbled, they reach the point where they stop being egocentrically willful and demanding, whatever their personal predilections and preferences may have been or yet be.

Then, because no longer preoccupied with 'dreams' of idealization-fantasy fulfillment and schemes aimed at attaining the same, they begin to be open to truly savoring and appreciating actualities and possibilities that are inherent in, and so embrace and act to creatively enhance, their and others present condition and circumstance, whatever this happens to be. As a result of becoming disillusioned regarding the possibility of actualizing and enjoying what, because of comparison-based sensation and logic, they previously mentally and emotionally fixated on as ‘ideal’, by default as it were, without specifically intending to, they organically rediscover and reexperience the beauty and bounteousness of Life as is.

In due course, such rediscovery and reexperience sparks a conversion in one’s outlook and mode of operation. Because one then experientially knows disappointment and dissatisfaction to be idealization-associated blights, one becomes more wary of and less likely to be lured by fantasy-based temptations and, if and when one gets ‘snared’ by them, more quickly frees oneself from such entanglement by reestablishing wholesome relationship with what is in truth. Gradually, more and more often, and each time more fully, recognizing the bounteousness of experience and ongoing opportunity for discovery, development and joyful expression afforded by Life as It is to be a phenomenal boon, one proceeds with an attitude of greater and greater appreciation and consequently love. As the quest for ‘more’ desire-satisfaction then becomes superfluous, one increasingly enjoys and, so, more and more ‘naturally’ acts to enhance developments in Life’s garden, whatever one’s situation and whoever one may be with. Such progression ‘naturally’ culminates in one’s actualizing totally positive modality and flourishing in complete psychospiritual communion with Life processes one is part and parcel of, as all one’s giving and receiving becomes geared to this.

Originally Posted by davidsun

Paying attention without being mentally or emotionally 'pre-occupied' - in my case, ordinary meditation (say by way of 'clearing' my mind and heart by steadily focus on my breathing) is enough to initiate said kind of 'experience'.

Okay, I can relate to that. I started with mindfulness of breathe and eventually added resting in awareness. The interesting thing with resting in awareness and with enough practice is the observer in mindfulness techniques becomes an object/event in the field of awareness. It's the Self witnessing the self.

That's the common theme behind all my posts.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Okay, I can relate to that. I started with mindfulness of breathe and eventually added resting in awareness. The interesting thing with resting in awareness and with enough practice is the observer in mindfulness techniques becomes an object/event in the field of awareness. It's the Self witnessing the self.

I can relate to that.

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

That's the common theme behind all my posts.

"The Bear Went Over the Mountain" song comes to mind: https://www.google.com/search?client...ountain+lyrics

The Q still remains as to what one can creatively 'do' with what one 'sees' (from 'the other side' of the mountain) and whether or not one does so optimally, in a Life-augmenting way.

My sense is that you haven't yet relationally engaged with the ideas I have presented as a 'theme' in the latter regard.

Originally Posted by davidsun

I can relate to that.


"The Bear Went Over the Mountain" song comes to mind: https://www.google.com/search?client...ountain+lyrics

The Q still remains as to what one can creatively 'do' with what one 'sees' (from 'the other side' of the mountain) and whether or not one does so optimally, in a Life-augmenting way.

My sense is that you haven't yet relationally engaged with the ideas I have presented as a 'theme' in the latter regard.

If one is truly enlightened, meaning completely and irrevocably identifying with and in fact being that awareness and is consciously able to witness not only the outside world but also the inside world from that perspective isn't that the biggest possible game changer to a more positive relationship to everything? I would think the ripples in the pond would touch everyone in the most positive way. That would in fact be Christ or Buddha consciousness. I don't see anything beyond that.

In other words there are no more mountains for the bear to go over.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

If one is truly enlightened, meaning completely and irrevocably identifying with and in fact being that awareness and is consciously able to witness not only the outside world but also the inside world from that perspective isn't that the biggest possible game changer to a more positive relationship to everything? I would think the ripples in the pond would touch everyone in the most positive way. That would in fact be Christ or Buddha consciousness. I don't see anything beyond that.

In other words there are no more mountains for the bear to go over.

Or it may be that in the greater scheme of things a human being is a fairly small entity. There are much greater Lives expressing themselves through planets and solar systems and even greater systems. So a human being who is truly enlightened (whatever that term may mean) may have just penetrated the threshold of a much greater Life.

In other words, the bear has discovered a whole new range of mountains and that bear is standing on a foothill.

Peace

Originally Posted by iamthat

Or it may be that in the greater scheme of things a human being is a fairly small entity. There are much greater Lives expressing themselves through planets and solar systems and even greater systems. So a human being who is truly enlightened (whatever that term may mean) may have just penetrated the threshold of a much greater Life.

In other words, the bear has discovered a whole new range of mountains and that bear is standing on a foothill.

Peace

Let's examine this in the context of a dream. In a normal dream I'm but one of many characters, some possibly lesser and others possibly greater including what in waking reality we might consider supernaturally greater. If I gain lucidity all that changes. I am beyond anything in the dream. They, including my dream body, are mere projections of Me the Dreamer. It is all within me and I within them. The dream is like Maya and I'm fully aware of that.

Lucidity within a dream is a perfect analogy for enlightenment.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

Let's examine this in the context of a dream. In a normal dream I'm but one of many characters, some possibly lesser and others possibly greater including what in waking reality we might consider supernaturally greater. If I gain lucidity all that changes. I am beyond anything in the dream. They, including my dream body, are mere projections of Me the Dreamer. It is all within me and I within them. The dream is like Maya and I'm fully aware of that.

Lucidity within a dream is a perfect analogy for enlightenment.

We may be fully aware of all within the dream but we have not yet begun to explore that which lies outside the dream. Even the highest human state of awareness may be insignificant from a greater perspective.

Peace

Originally Posted by iamthat

We may be fully aware of all within the dream but we have not yet begun to explore that which lies outside the dream. Even the highest human state of awareness may be insignificant from a greater perspective.

Peace

Two things about that.

1 - It's an argument against the possility of realization/enlightenment.
2 - It considers awareness a thing of mind-body vs. Existence, Consciousness, Bliss.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by JustASimpleGuy

If one is truly enlightened, meaning completely and irrevocably identifying with and in fact being that awareness and is consciously able to witness not only the outside world but also the inside world from that perspective isn't that the biggest possible game changer to a more positive relationship to everything? I would think the ripples in the pond would touch everyone in the most positive way. That would in fact be Christ or Buddha consciousness. I don't see anything beyond that.

In other words there are no more mountains for the bear to go over.

Not quite - Guatama and Jesus lived and 'saw' and 'spoke about' things in a 2600 and 2000 (respectively) year ago context. Besides, many have interpreted and understood what they pointed to in very limited and often doofey fashion, IMO.

On top of that you strike me as being quite enamored of and so 'championing' Advaita-philosophy related perpectives and statements which I consider to be far from being the best (by me that is) representations and expressions of a truly 'Non-Dualistic' philosophy.

Your saying that you don't see anything 'beyond' that sort of thing and therefore having concluded that there are no more "mountains for the bear to go over" (and therefore open-mindedly engage in discussing as possibly being additionally informative) is exactly the 'point' I am making.

In case you wish to 'get into' the kinds of issues I raise, let me reiterate my previous criticism (which may have gone 'over your head' since you obviously think what you 'see' and understand is on the level of Jesus and Gautama) that your choosing to 'i'dentify with 'just' (i.e. merely) be a 'simple' Guy is quite a questionable kind of 'humility' - IMO, we have to first 'get' beyond that if we are to begin to have a mutually meaning-full conversation.