The 'no God' spirituality.

[Frozen Ghost]

Originally Posted by Honza

Is it true that there are many people who do not actually believe in God who are spiritual? Maybe here lies the crux of the difference between religion and spirituality? Religion is a firm faith and belief in God. Spirituality is a spiritual practice which aims to help oneself and the human race (but God is not a necessity here).

I find that many people here at SF talk about spirituality but they often fail to include God. There are all sorts of methods mentioned which help this or that in the spiritual sense; but God is somehow omitted.

This is what strikes me about much mysticism - particularly Eastern mysticism. It talks of reaching enlightenment but it somehow circumnavigates talk of God.

I have faith and am a firm believer in God's existence. I'm not talking pure consciousness here or I AM; but rather a living breathing God. Much like a 'super-person'.

I think this may be the reason why I struggle with Eastern mysticism and the New Age.

People today subscribe to what they call a more logical spirituality. Sometimes that path is more scientific than spiritual, sometimes it just focuses on the self and at other times focuses on helping others or the planet. No matter how you slice it, the logical spiritual path, sometimes is not that logical at all. For instance, some individuals will discount the existence of God, but espouse the idea that aliens seeded our planet with life; and are therefore responsible for all of the lifeforms on earth. With all the variations of different creatures, and all the different complexities of the different cells and DNA strands .... Wouldn't that make the aliens at least somewhat Godlike? Somewhere along the line, there had to be a first cause, and that first cause would have to be pretty high on the totem pole of beings in order to create all the complex lifeforms on even a single planet. But then, we must ask, where did those all those planets come from? And where did those high beings on the totem pole come from? Who seeded or made them? Eventually, we're going to get to an ultimate life form, that made every other life form possible. What is it? Where did it come from? Where did it get its intelligence? Hence a concept of God is not far from determining at this point, nor is it a far-fetched concept.

Secondly, we must look at the out of body experience, and the near-death experience. Enough research has been done on these topics in modern times, to cast much shadow of doubt over the old dying brain concept. Where do these consciousnesses go after death? What is the light that all claim to see and feel that they are part of? What are the beings of light and voices that speak to these consciousnesses? Why do people return from these experiences and say that they saw or felt the presence of God? It is obvious that we go somewhere after death, whom or what are we returning to? If we are our own gods,as some of the logical spiritualists believe, then are returning to ourselves? Are we returning to the aliens? Those possibilities don't even make logical sense. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that someone or something put us here, and when we finish our time on this earth, we return to that something or someone.

Some individuals believe that we are the gods who created this material world and then came here to learn. That again, doesn't make so much sense. If we were Godlike, and could create this material world and everything in it, then why in blazes would we need to come here to learn anything? Did we not have anything better to do? Were we like cosmic infants who had no clue about compassion, love and morality? So we had to create this elaborate playground and then expose ourselves to all kinds of hurt and harm in order to learn these things? Again, logically thought out, this just doesn't really make much sense.

So in the end, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with a spiritual path that looks inward. Every reasonable spiritual path should encourage us to do that. I'm not saying that any concept of God would have to be the God of organized religion. Those are man-made gods that reflect the shortcomings and foibles of human beings. But to think this equation through, logically, without leaning too heavily on all of the miss information that we have been spoon fed by the new atheists and Company ... the idea and concept of God is actually just as logical, if not more so, than some of the other theories that are out there.

[Frozen Ghost]

Sorry, post posted twice... this is just an edit :-)

[Nowayout]

I'm new here so with all due humility, this is my simple take on it.

God is such a huge word.

The only way I can know "God" is to get real about my life but putting a face on God is hard. What made everything anyway?

We have all those Good Books with Gods word, OK.

Perhaps it becomes a relationship of sorts, you do need to pick up the phone, but the other side of the line is unimaginable for me, but I get touched in my heart if I pray. It's all rather simplified the way I pray, God help me, and off it goes to the Godhead, in the end, I guess.

I don't fear God as much as I worry about falling down. It's like gravity, there are spiritual laws, no doubt.

Maybe that's what being spiritual is all about, finding your balance in life. God or no Gods... you are on a souls journey.

[Seawolf]

Originally Posted by Honza

I think this may be the reason why I struggle with Eastern mysticism and the New Age.

How we see God largely depends on the religions of our societies. Christianity. Judaism and Islam see an anthropomorphic God (in man's image).

Here's a simple explanation of God in Eastern religions..

"Eastern religions, particularly Hinduism, see more of an "all-pervading" God. They see Him as the essence of all things... something that is pure energy and is immanent (within), and pervades our lives and life force. Of course, this view is hard to understand for the average Westerner. "

It's a struggle to understand it if we weren't raised to think that way. Society's way of thinking becomes part of the brain from early chlidhood. For me it was difficult let go of the anthropomorphic God. But I had to do it for my life to progress. I was attached to it, and that attachment was holding me back. After I let it go, I was free to believe whatever I wanted.. Christian God, Eastern God, no God, whatever. It took a lot of struggle but ended in freedom which is a gift.

If there's a struggle to decide what God is like, it may be an attachment issue. In that case if you let go of the attachment, then you're free to believe in God the way that's best for you without struggle and doubt.

It's good to get in mindset of letting go, learning to relax and getting in touch ourselves. Doing things that bring peace of mind.

[Frozen Ghost]

Originally Posted by Nowayout

I'm new here so with all due humility, this is my simple take on it.

God is such a huge word.

The only way I can know "God" is to get real about my life but putting a face on God is hard. What made everything anyway?

We have all those Good Books with Gods word, OK.

Perhaps it becomes a relationship of sorts, you do need to pick up the phone, but the other side of the line is unimaginable for me, but I get touched in my heart if I pray. It's all rather simplified the way I pray, God help me, and off it goes to the Godhead, in the end, I guess.

I don't fear God as much as I worry about falling down. It's like gravity, there are spiritual laws, no doubt.

Maybe that's what being spiritual is all about, finding your balance in life. God or no Gods... you are on a souls journey.

Nicely said... and you know, all those books may have some great wisdom and deep insights. But the relationship is up to the individual.

After all, who came up with all these rules on how to pray, what and when to say and how to say it? If there is a God, what makes us think that he would want everyone saying the same thing to him every day, all the time, over and over again? Wouldn't he just want us to be us, and have an actual relationship of some kind? Sure, he would want us to be good, kind and loving... all that stuff. But I still think he would want us to be individuals, be personable and keep it real.

[Shivani Devi]

The general concept underpinning both religion and spirituality is 'a power much greater than the personal ego'. Some conceive it to be 'consciousness' or 'awareness' or the "I AM" whilst others personalise the concept to that of a 'supreme being' which is congruent with their faith and experiences. In Hinduism, this is called an Ishta Dewata.

It is difficult to conceptualise that which exists beyond the mind and sensory perception, so any 'form of God' becomes a mere stepping stone to the ultimate, experiential awareness of bliss/happiness.

Kralaro asked me in a PM yesterday; "did Shiva actually say He was God?" to which I replied "He didn't need to say anything, because I already knew". This knowledge is more than mere belief or faith or even 'thinking' that Shiva = God. However, after I sent that PM, I was reminded of the first time, back when I was a child when I had a vision of Shiva. At that time, I asked "are you God?" and Shiva said "I AM"....so make of that what you will.

And so it was that recently, I was guided to recall the 12 Steps of AA - not that I am or ever was an alcoholic, but I attended a meeting with an associate who is. I sought to gain any wisdom from the experience that I could and two things stood out:

"Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity"....and:

Just for today I will try to live through
this day only, and not tackle all my problems
at once. I can do something for twelve
hours that would appall me if I felt I had to
keep it up for a lifetime.

Just for today I will be happy. This
assumes to be true what Abraham Lincoln
said, that “Most folks are as happy as they
make up their minds to be.”

Just for today I will adjust myself to what
is, and not try to adjust everything to my
own desires. I will take my “luck” as it
comes, and fit myself to it.

Just for today I will try to strengthen my
mind. I will study. I will learn something
useful. I will not be a mental loafer. I will
read something that requires effort,
thought and concentration.

Just for today I will exercise my soul in
three ways: I will do somebody a good turn,
and not get found out; if anyone knows of
it, it will not count. I will do at least two
things I don’t want to do – just for
exercise. I will not show anyone that my
feelings are hurt; they may be hurt, but
today I will not show it.

Just for today I will be agreeable. I will
look as well as I can, dress becomingly, keep
my voice low, be courteous, criticize not one
bit. I won’t find fault with anything, nor try
to improve or regulate anybody but myself.

Just for today I will have a program. I may
not follow it exactly, but I will have it. I will
save myself from two pests: hurry and
indecision.

Just for today I will have a quiet half hour
all by myself and relax. During this half
hour, sometime, I will try to get a better
perspective of my life.

Just for today I will I will be unafraid.
Especially I will not be afraid to notice
what is beautiful and to believe that as I
give to the world, so the world will give to
me."

I am forever on the lookout for 'signs from God/a power greater than me' and I have opened my heart up fully to receiving them.

Peace.

[markings]

Originally Posted by Seawolf

"Eastern religions, particularly Hinduism, see more of an "all-pervading" God. They see Him as the essence of all things... something that is pure energy and is immanent (within), and pervades our lives and life force. Of course, this view is hard to understand for the average Westerner. "

It is only difficult to understand because they are not given an alternative to what is the prevailing thought structure of the West, entity thinking.
When one move to process thinking the understanding comes easy and there are any number of examples where one can see that Western thinking is flawed.

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by markings

It is only difficult to understand because they are not given an alternative to what is the prevailing thought structure of the West, entity thinking.
When one move to process thinking the understanding comes easy and there are any number of examples where one can see that Western thinking is flawed.

everyone who says such things has such good intentions... but then it is still near impossible not to let it turn into another tyranny.

[markings]

Originally Posted by FallingLeaves

everyone who says such things has such good intentions... but then it is still near impossible not to let it turn into another tyranny.

Process thinking is mostly immune to this because there are no entities, no objects and subjects which could gain from tyranny.

[markings]

The biggest failure of the reincarnation concept, and the 'life is a (near endless) school' idea is that they seemingly have no end. If there is an end it is far into the future and that is a major demotivating factor, so much so that many people do not even begin.