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  #11  
Old 11-05-2019, 04:01 PM
edithaint edithaint is offline
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The only density I know of? That of our blood, bones, flesh, the breath and dust of our bodies, energy concentrated into semi-solid form. Iron, lead, and uranium are more dense than hydrogen and oxygen. :) Us, rats, dogs, cats, worms, bees, trees, bacteriums....We're all made of the same stuff. We're all the same density, more or less.

Humans like to think of themselves as "not animals" or some other such nonsense. Indeed, we have strengths and weaknesses other animals do not, but the same could be said of dogs, dolphins, and octopi. I somewhat agree with Altair, we as a species are no more enlightened than any other beast.

Worms and bacteria deserve our respect as great ancestors.
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  #12  
Old 11-05-2019, 04:17 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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It's funny because we'd be dead if it weren't for all the 'good' bacteria in our body. Nature is a complex system where there is no greater and lesser, superior or inferior. It only appears that way temporarily, when we cure a disease or when a wolf eats a deer..

Though it is very fascinating to think about it spiritually. I think I read elsewhere someone mention that disease and suffering is our way to ''return to God''. But really, the disease (caused by say a bacteria or a virus) doesn't care about our sense of right and wrong. Are they rebelling against God? Are they Satan's lab experiment? The tiny organisms want to survive too. If you're in the wrong place and time, you are screwed!! It doesn't matter how pious you are..! Even a religiously pious society can succumb to a dangerous pandemic. It's only us that believe there is a sense of judgement going on, or that we're ''rebelling against God'', cast down to play a cycle of samsara until one ''sees the light''.. It all seems so frolic and comical to me, the stuff we tell one another...!!!

When the creatures deeming themselves to be superior or more evolved can so easily die, even when they're pious, what does this still mean to any perceived hierarchy..? ;-)
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  #13  
Old 11-05-2019, 07:55 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edithaint
The only density I know of? That of our blood, bones, flesh, the breath and dust of our bodies, energy concentrated into semi-solid form. Iron, lead, and uranium are more dense than hydrogen and oxygen. :) Us, rats, dogs, cats, worms, bees, trees, bacteriums....We're all made of the same stuff. We're all the same density, more or less.

Humans like to think of themselves as "not animals" or some other such nonsense. Indeed, we have strengths and weaknesses other animals do not, but the same could be said of dogs, dolphins, and octopi. I somewhat agree with Altair, we as a species are no more enlightened than any other beast.

Worms and bacteria deserve our respect as great ancestors.

Why do you consider humans just in terms of the physical body?

Peace.
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  #14  
Old 11-05-2019, 11:07 PM
edithaint edithaint is offline
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Originally Posted by iamthat
Why do you consider humans just in terms of the physical body?

Peace.

Not JUST, but our bodies are a major piece who we are. Because our physical bodies are what make us human. Without form, we are "only" spirit, same as all other life. Why NOT consider humans in terms of the physical body, when that is the primary difference between us and worms? We were created human to experience life as humans, with the strengths and weaknesses unique to our species, otherwise we simply wouldn't be here to have this discussion. Worms were created to experience life as worms, with the strengths and weaknesses unique to their kind.
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  #15  
Old 11-05-2019, 11:27 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edithaint
Not JUST, but our bodies are a major piece who we are. Because our physical bodies are what make us human. Without form, we are spirit, same as all other life. Why NOT consider humans in terms of the physical body,

Exactly, so any hierarchy or claim made concerning spirituality or ''spiritual truth'' is still a human perspective, made sense about through a human mind shaped by culture, linguistics, and sensations. Nothing about any of that suggests humans are better at spirituality or unlocking spiritual truths than angels, deities, wolves, or oak trees can't!

And here's the funny thing... various spiritual paths eventually come to the conclusion that everything is spiritual and everything is equal, which would make any differentiation and hierarchy between different bodies, forms, and states of being a bit pointless. If everything is already spiritual, why then have individuality and variety of life? Why the ''lower'' form still wipes out the ''higher'' form?

We can already know for certain that other creatures will live on this planet long after we are gone. Humans also weren't around for most of the earth's history. This idea of a hierarchy is based on Indian teachings of ''soul evolution through species'', where there's a belief in a FIXED number of species, which is simply falsehood as there have been many different species in the past that no longer exist, so there's never been a linear, predictable, and fixed state of things if we apply a cycle of reincarnation through different species..


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  #16  
Old 11-05-2019, 11:47 PM
edithaint edithaint is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Exactly, so any hierarchy or claim made concerning spirituality or ''spiritual truth'' is still a human perspective, made sense about through a human mind shaped by culture, linguistics, and sensations. Nothing about any of that suggests humans are better at spirituality or unlocking spiritual truths than angels, deities, wolves, or oak trees can't!

And here's the funny thing... various spiritual paths eventually come to the conclusion that everything is spiritual and everything is equal, which would make any differentiation and hierarchy between different bodies, forms, and states of being a bit pointless. If everything is already spiritual, why then have individuality and variety of life? Why the ''lower'' form still wipes out the ''higher'' form?

We can already know for certain that other creatures will live on this planet long after we are gone. Humans also weren't around for most of the earth's history. This idea of a hierarchy is based on Indian teachings of ''soul evolution through species'', where there's a belief in a FIXED number of species, which is simply falsehood as there have been many different species in the past that no longer exist, so there's never been a linear, predictable, and fixed state of things..



We have individuality and variety of life because....we do! The universe experiences life through humans, other animals, and even the planets themselves. Every miracle, but also every horror, happens for its own sake. We are individual parts whirring about in a timeless possibility machine, and those infinite possibilities include our relatively solid planet inhabited by strange fleshy beasts who eat each other.
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  #17  
Old 12-05-2019, 01:18 AM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edithaint
Not JUST, but our bodies are a major piece who we are. Because our physical bodies are what make us human. Without form, we are "only" spirit, same as all other life. Why NOT consider humans in terms of the physical body, when that is the primary difference between us and worms? We were created human to experience life as humans, with the strengths and weaknesses unique to our species, otherwise we simply wouldn't be here to have this discussion. Worms were created to experience life as worms, with the strengths and weaknesses unique to their kind.

Strange. Yes, the physical body allows us to experience life on the physical plane for a short period of time, but I would consider the physical body as the least important aspect of a human being.

But then you seem to think of a human being as spirit inhabiting a physical body. Some of us accept that humans also have emotional and mental bodies which are also forms (of more subtle substance). And behind it all there is self-aware consciousness. These are primarily what make us human, and also differentiate us from the worms.

Peace.
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  #18  
Old 12-05-2019, 03:23 AM
edithaint edithaint is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
Strange. Yes, the physical body allows us to experience life on the physical plane for a short period of time, but I would consider the physical body as the least important aspect of a human being.

But then you seem to think of a human being as spirit inhabiting a physical body. Some of us accept that humans also have emotional and mental bodies which are also forms (of more subtle substance). And behind it all there is self-aware consciousness. These are primarily what make us human, and also differentiate us from the worms.

Peace.

Ah, no. Far more than JUST a spirit in a physical body. We are spirit AS a physical body. There are truly no linear divisions between body, mind and soul. No behind, before, above, or below. We are a ripple in spacetime, energy and information of a nature we do not understand, through which the universe experiences itself. The entire human body-mind complex is important because without it, what exactly is the point of being human?

Of course, we all perceive ourselves and our surroundings differently. Some see the world as only physical, others see physical, mental, spiritual, and others see the world as only spiritual. Yet our animal brains will never fully comprehend the true whole. While we humans may perceive ourselves and other animals in a certain way, those other animals have equally valid experiences as spirit embodied in spacetime. They are no less conscious than we are.
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  #19  
Old 12-05-2019, 08:15 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edithaint
Ah, no. Far more than JUST a spirit in a physical body. We are spirit AS a physical body. There are truly no linear divisions between body, mind and soul. No behind, before, above, or below. We are a ripple in spacetime, energy and information of a nature we do not understand, through which the universe experiences itself. The entire human body-mind complex is important because without it, what exactly is the point of being human?

Of course, we all perceive ourselves and our surroundings differently. Some see the world as only physical, others see physical, mental, spiritual, and others see the world as only spiritual. Yet our animal brains will never fully comprehend the true whole. While we humans may perceive ourselves and other animals in a certain way, those other animals have equally valid experiences as spirit embodied in spacetime. They are no less conscious than we are.

You are welcome to consider yourself as having the same level of consciousness as a worm.

Peace.
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  #20  
Old 12-05-2019, 10:05 PM
edithaint edithaint is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthat
You are welcome to consider yourself as having the same level of consciousness as a worm.

Peace.

I consider it a great honor.
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