Beasts - small and large

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

You use the example of homosexuals...there still is no global unification in this regard either...so, what are you, Mr Trump, Mr Morrisson and the rest of the world going to DO avout it? the question remains...I mean, saying it is the "wrong thing to do" and getting society to agree with and adopt certain practices STILL will not stop specific individuals from taking a "conscience vote" on the matter regardless! I personally am against homosexuality...I don't believe punishing them or stoning them is the right way to go, but what can I do about same sex marriage? absolutely NOTHING! It doesn't mean I have to agree with it because of that, or go out and find myself a leshian partner tomorrow, does it?

Again, I find all of this needlessly fatalistic. History shows us society changes. We can argue about the many numbers that disagree but things eventually can change for the better.. or worse. It's up to us..

I see this as one of the key problems in much of modern spirituality. A sense of ''escapism'' from the world, which is postulated as ''an illusion'', and there is a promise of a ''nice afterlife'' or other grandiose promises that are food for the mind, and often delusional fantasies. Spirituality should, IMHO, be about connecting one's self to others (humans, animals, our shared environment). Other paths leads to selfishness and destruction..

And I don't think there's a ''multi-billion dollar industry'' involved in the torturing and eating of dogs. As for other livestock, eventually that sector will have to change and redefine itself because their negative impact is undeniable..

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Altair

Again, I find all of this needlessly fatalistic. History shows us society changes. We can argue about the many numbers that disagree but things eventually can change for the better.. or worse. It's up to us..

I see this as one of the key problems in much of modern spirituality. A sense of ''escapism'' from the world, which is postulated as ''an illusion'', and there is a promise of a ''nice afterlife'' or other grandiose promises that are food for the mind, and often delusional fantasies. Spirituality should, IMHO, be about connecting one's self to others (humans, animals, our shared environment). Other paths leads to selfishness and destruction..

And I don't think there's a ''multi-billion dollar industry'' involved in the torturing and eating of dogs. As for other livestock, eventually that sector will have to change and redefine itself because their negative impact is undeniable..

Does it matter to me what you think? what you find personally "needless"? tell me my friend, why SHOULD it?

So, others may say that I am just being "selfish" for looking out for myself, for minding my own business, for expressing myself, for remaining true to myself..for just being who I am!

So even if I am selfish, why should another who is saying to me "You are being selfish" even matter to me? for them to think I should care what they have to say about my selfishness, would mean that I am not being selfish in the first place, right?

Oh, I also have to love it when the label of "selfish" gets attached because I will not listen to THEM, totally agree with THEM, meet THEIR emotional needs...let me hold up that projection screen.

Wherever there is a "caring", there is an attachment.

For those who love this world and everybody in it and can't wait to be reborn over and over because they love the world SO much they can't get enough of it and they are not suffering at all, the world is NOT an illusion.

For those who want to stop the ride and get off, obtain Moksha (liberation), attain the bliss of Brahman...of Satchitananda and have no intention of ever coming back here and going back and resting in Source, the world IS an illusion.

What people believe DOES NOT MATTER to anybody else but the believer...and eventually, through meditation, they will come to realise that it doesn't matter even to themselves anymore...this is enlightenment...not choosing lentils over chicken.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Wherever there is a "caring", there is an attachment.

Yes, there is attachment. We enjoy and love the company of nice people, a pleasant environment, and to be able to survive and prosper in a world. Not caring about any of that leads to destruction..

I disagree with religions that attachments or desires for that matter are evil or negative (I understand why they can be seen that way though in specific situations..). We've created civilizations in which much of our suffering has become self inflicted. The more advanced civilization becomes, the more we seem to lose connection with others and the world and then we may look for an escape. Unsurprisingly self-help spirituality is as popular as it is because of these developments..

You don't see a rainforest tribe or a small agricultural community bother with escaping the world or viewing the earth's fruits as illusion... unless of course an impressionable, rich preacher or priest finds his way there, impressing the locals with ''writing'', ''parables'', and ''shiny things''..

Our history is dotted with such examples...

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Altair

Yes, there is attachment. We enjoy and love the company of nice people, a pleasant environment, and to be able to survive and prosper in a world. Not caring about any of that leads to destruction..

I disagree with religions that attachments or desires for that matter are evil or negative (I understand why they can be seen that way though in specific situations..). We've created civilizations in which much of our suffering has become self inflicted. The more advanced civilization becomes, the more we seem to lose connection with others and the world and then we may look for an escape. Unsurprisingly self-help spirituality is as popular as it is because of these developments..

You don't see a rainforest tribe or a small agricultural community bother with escaping the world or viewing the earth's fruits as illusion... unless of course an impressionable, rich preacher or priest finds his way there, impressing the locals with ''writing'', ''parables'', and ''shiny things''..

Our history is dotted with such examples...

Yes, not caring about any of those attachments leads to destruction...the destruction of one's EGO.

We may enjoy the company of nice people, a pleasant environment and all that...but what if we are in the company of hostile people? a polluted environment? we don't enjoy it any more isn't it? we suffer because we don't have those fleeting, pleasurable things.

Even 5, 000 years ago, when the Vedas were written, India was pretty much a hunter gatherer tribal community...small family tribes living in agricultural villages dotted all over the sub continent...

Yet, they still spoke about the world being an illusion, about non-attachment, about gaining freedom from all material things and material existence...why was that?

Because it is our individual human nature and not conditioned social expectations which determines our karma.

[Altair]

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Yes, not caring about any of those attachments leads to destruction...the destruction of one's EGO.

We may enjoy the company of nice people, a pleasant environment and all that...but what if we are in the presence of hostile people? a polluted environment? we don't enjoy it any more isn't it? we suffer because we don't have those fleeting, pleasurable things.

There are plenty of pleasurable and nice things in this world.. in other people, in the environment.. and it's worth living for. I'm sorry to hear that this isn't the case for you. The world's not a curse, Shivani, it's a blessing..

Safe to say, any religion (most of the mainstream ones) that emphasizes a negative view of the world, and think about deserving and wanting a better world, is IMO not worthy of it. If we can't appreciate the small things we don't deserve the big things..

At the risk of quoting the 'evils' of 'entertainment'... it made me think of what Gandalf said in the Hobbit movie.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU5_-lLjhQw

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

Yet, they still spoke about the world being an illusion, about non-attachment, about gaining freedom from all material things and material existence...why was that?
Because it is our individual human nature and not conditioned social expectations which determines our karma.

That is your culture, and no doubt it hasn't always been the same. For a while you've had priests and guru's talking about the world being bad and one must escape this existence. Why one is even on such a ''cycle'' isn't explained so the entire endeavour becomes a bit meaningless. It's just ''attachments ad infinitum''.. so bacteria is attached to multiplying, human to pleasure, tree to being grounded, etc.

1500 years ago my country was polytheistic and people had no need to talk about ''sin'', ''Adam's fall'', ''karma'' or any other negativity or grandiose self-importance placed upon the human experience of suffering. Maybe some stories about competing gods, but no world-hating stuff..

Then Christian preachers from Rome came, cutting down sacred oaks, desecrating ''pagan'' shrines, and impressing the people with riches, writing, and shiny things. Now said religion is the dominant one.. Religions have done this all over the world. It's a history of unhappy urbanites with priestly education being stuck in their self inflicted suffering, living in sterile man-made environments, telling others to ''see the light'' and the ''solution'' to their ''problem''..

[Shivani Devi]

Originally Posted by Altair

There are plenty of pleasurable and nice things in this world.. in other people, in the environment.. and it's worth living for. I'm sorry to hear that this isn't the case for you. The world's not a curse, Shivani, it's a blessing..

Safe to say, any religion (most of the mainstream ones) that emphasizes a negative view of the world, and think about deserving and wanting a better world, is IMO not worthy of it. If we can't appreciate the small things we don't deserve the big things..

At the risk of quoting the 'evils' of 'entertainment'... it made me think of what Gandalf said in the Hobbit movie.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU5_-lLjhQw



That is your culture, and no doubt it hasn't always been the same. For a while you've had priests and guru's talking about the world being bad and one must escape this existence. Why one is even on such a ''cycle'' isn't explained so the entire endeavour becomes a bit meaningless. It's just ''attachments ad infinitum''.. so bacteria is attached to multiplying, human to pleasure, tree to being grounded, etc.

1500 years ago my country was polytheistic and people had no need to talk about ''sin'', ''Adam's fall'', ''karma'' or any other negativity or grandiose self-importance placed upon the human experience of suffering. Maybe some stories about competing gods, but no world-hating stuff..

Then Christian preachers from Rome came, cutting down sacred oaks, desecrating ''pagan'' shrines, and impressing the people with riches, writing, and shiny things. Now said religion is the dominant one.. Religions have done this all over the world. It's a history of unhappy urbanites with priestly education being stuck in their self inflicted suffering, living in sterile man-made environments, telling others to ''see the light'' and the ''solution'' to their ''problem''..

Sorry it took a while to reply to you, but I needed to have supper, a shower and prepare for retiring. It will also take a day or two for me to get back to you after this post.

I have really been enjoying our discussion. Thank you for indulging me.

You are correct..in the material world, things are constantly changing...sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse...and sometimes we will die with hope still remaining in our hearts..hope for a "better world" even though it is too late for us to enjoy it...maybe our great grandchildren will.

I am not really a fatalist, more like what can I do NOW to make a difference? not just plod along, hoping the rest of the world will eventually catch up... worrying about things that may/not eventuate, it's more like understanding when I am just "flogging a dead horse" or not...but how can I tell if the horse is well and truly dead? for all intents and purposes...it ain't moving...it ain't breathing...it must be.

Yes, I have had a hard life; I haven't known the pleasures of it...the love in it...the beauty of it, so I realised that due to that, I had to seek my existence...my destiny INTERNALLY and not EXTERNALLY. I still get caught up in the illusion sometimes...expecting others to care, to show appreciation, to make me feel wanted, included and loved...but I realise deep down that this is only an unrealistic dream, it is only "wishful thinking" on MY part...such things don't exist outside myself or life would be (and would have been) much kinder and hospitable to me...so I was destined to take the path of the monk...the renunciant...because the Universe, the Source was removing all of my attachments to make that transition much easier for me...less painful.

There are still some times that my ego retaliates, puts up resistance, tries to fight back, but it is futile...and one would think that after 50 years I would finally "get the message" to spend my existence in meditation and stop running after sensory enjoyment and at last I am starting to get it...I am starting to...

My universe is inside myself and this doesn't make me selfish...painfully introverted and neurotic? yep.
Will it lead to destruction? will trying to breathe lead to not drowning under the ocean?

However...and that being said...HERE WE GO!

https://secure.humanesociety.org/sit...age=UserAction

If anybody wants to actively get involved, sign the petition, join the humane society, get all of your family and friends to do likewise and spread the message!

See, I am doing something about it instead of just talking s*** on a "spiritual forum'.

Originally Posted by NoOne

In the case of China, there are historical reasons for this. It is grossly overpopulated and went through a major famine within living memory. They sold human meat on the markets during that time, so, really, dogs and cats are the least of it. Everything that moves and crawls is eaten in China, even the birds on the trees in city parks for instance. It was quite similar during the famine in Ukraine btw, during Stalin's time. First, people ate the cats and dogs, then started eating each other. It is just how survival works, it is easy to condemn such actions on a full stomach, but I wonder if your children were starving to death, would you still be so high and mighty about it? That said, countries where dog and cat meat used to be eaten for reasons of poverty are now banning it, such as in Korea or Vietnam, because people can now afford better meat. I guess that is progress?

Yes, this post is not about China or the Chinese.

Every country, religion, creed and race has done/does things which are not 'nice'.

As Thich Nhat Hanh said, if that was me and my conditions, thoughts, beliefs, I would do the same.

Or as the Christians say "There but for the Grace of God, go I"

The sadness with this festival is the torturing and abuse of the animals.

'Westerners' eat cows, pigs, duck and sheep. I'm not sure if you've seen documentaries of farming practices, they are also quite inhumane come to think of it..

JL

Originally Posted by Altair

but now they can pretend to be oh so zen like, and pretend to follow Buddhic teachings, I suppose..

I have read all your posts on this thread and wanted to make a couple of comments:

1. The road to hell is paved with good intentions; do you remember the upheaval in Egypt? The revolution? ... The Blue Wave? Brexit? Things lost and won? Causes come and gone? etc. The world has ebbs and flows - this is a fact. I appreciate your social activism, and thank you for your service, but what I do genuinely think is that unless one has transformed and transcended (internally) - it's still the ebb of the world and who knows? "Help" that comes with condemnation, narrow perspectives, judgement and other forms of baggage may even hinder, that is why it's important to clear out one's own house first, in my opinion. "There but for the Grace of God go I" - swap out a few beliefs and thoughts, and conditions, and who are each of us?

2. I can't remember the second point

JL

Originally Posted by Shivani Devi

I am not really a fatalist, more like what can I do NOW to make a difference? not just plod along, hoping the rest of the world will eventually catch up... worrying about things that may/not eventuate, it's more like understanding when I am just "flogging a dead horse" or not...but how can I tell if the horse is well and truly dead? for all intents and purposes...it ain't moving...it ain't breathing...it must be.

.

However...and that being said...HERE WE GO!

https://secure.humanesociety.org/sit...age=UserAction

If anybody wants to actively get involved, sign the petition, join the humane society, get all of your family and friends to do likewise and spread the message!

See, I am doing something about it instead of just talking s*** on a "spiritual forum'.

Thanks. What I hear you saying is you are selective about your energies and interests, pragmatic about where to devote your time, whilst recognizing the condition of free will and development in the Earth.

JL

[Altair]

Shivani, I understand that if we were to take the long perspective then why bother? But we live now, in this moment, in this world.. so I think it's in the interests of all if we make the best out of it and appreciate what we've been given. Maybe we lack the right people, or maybe we lack a nice place, but that isn't the fault of the ''physical universe''. It's our own doing, collectively, how we deal with our 'resources' and have created societies and continue to be in the process of commodifying relationships, places, etc.

Even if we can't climb the mountain.. who cares.. you may as well try with a smile on your face. Maybe it's all just some test we're meant to overcome, and the test isn't just to ''be spiritual'' and sit down quietly, but also to embrace our positive characteristics in a more practical way.. such as helping others from doom and torture. Maybe we'll not make a big difference as individuals, but if we all think in such a way then nothing will..

Descartes said ''I think therefore I am'' and that is perhaps insulting in a spiritual community, but the over indulgence in the concept of 'suffering' however, and the accompanied spiritual explanations, such as; Adam's sin, karma, attachment, demonic conspiracies, etc. all show that there's still focus on mind wanting an answer that is satisfactory, and avoiding action. It's what we've created, it's not God. We are in the right and entitled to feel sadness, but we're also entitled to do something about it. Where is the most obvious truth that we are simply here and should act and take responsibility for ourselves and each other if we want to improve our lives and our world...?

Forget the ''ego'', the ''attachments'', the ''desires''...

It's just concepts. You can enjoy the company of others and be entangled in the beauty of the world, and also meditate and seek peace within. There need not be a dichotomy. The dichotomy exists in your mind only. There's nothing stopping you from having a good and enjoyable time in this world and also doing your spirituality..

Of course, there's figures like Jesus and Buddha meditating for long periods of time, but these are exceptional paths to walk. Is it what we truly want... or is it a means to shield ourselves from fear..? I can understand there can be attachments and desires that can get in the way, but throwing all of it overboard isn't needed. Though if you really want to, authentically want it at your core, then I suppose a monastery is the way to go ((few distractions)).. but you're not in a monastery, so maybe find a bit of peace and balance.. within and outside...