The Actualisation of Loving-Kindness

[Rain95]

Originally Posted by Molearner

This is possible because it is coming from a purified center?

Originally Posted by Gem

'The centre', as it were, is already completely pure (and immediately accessible by anyone), but minds and bodies are obstructed by 'impurities', 'defilements' (to use common Buddhist parlance). We mostly call it 'blocks' and 'negative thoughts'.

Those words, it is already completely pure, and obstructions, sure point out a huge mystery to me. Why are we not completely pure, since we are already? Why do we have obstructions?

The answer that pops into my mind is we are merged with a human animal body.

Then the question that occurs to me is why? Why put a pure perfect thing, into an animal body and it's brain/mind?

My thoughts say the reason is a bit complicated, there is an intentional puzzle here, the maze has been set with the traps and cheese, we are supposed to have obstructions, but the design is such we become unaware such obstructions are there, we are fooled as to who or what we are... but again, this is the design, it is supposed to happen.

The scientist puts the mouse in the maze to get it to learn something. Likewise, we are put into this" maze" which is this human body and it's mind, to learn something.

When we completely stop identifying with what we are not, we experience more fully what we are. I'm not sure I would call it a "center," it's just the same me I have always been, just not preoccupied with all this lower energy stuff, all this thought / mind. I would not say it is pure as moments of clarity come then leave. Also, depth of insight varies.

The stuff from which I am made, and connected to, is vast and not able to be grasped from our limited view point, but touching that vastness, even a small corner of it, is a profound experience.

In those moments, when one is not identifying with what they are not, yea the love and compassion is intense. You would die for another, even those you hate. Because there is no hate in that state of being. You love every living thing like yourself, more than yourself. You no longer have a "self" to be selfish or self centered. You are what you are, and that projects it qualities outward.

[Samana]

.

"Broad View, Boundless Heart" by Ajahn Amaro and Ajahn Passano is definately worth reading. It's a little PDF book about the Brahmaviharas, which are the qualities of loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity.


https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-boo...undless-heart/


_/|\_

Love the Amaravati monastics and teachings.

Thanks, Samana.

Namaste,

JL

[sentient]

Originally Posted by Gem

People who are Buddhist might find Buddhist iconography meaningful; Christians, the iconography of Christ; Hindus, their own and so on. It's all fine, none is better than another, and even though individuals give much importance to their own religious imagery, Buddhist iconography means little to Christians and vice versa, and the elephant lady with tons of arms is no more than a cartoon figure to me.

I think people can use imagery, but some people have no use for visualising icons. Some people have use for Jesus or Mary icons, some use Buddhist icons, others prefer the multi-armed elephant lady - and no icon is universally important to everyone.

Metta is universal, regardless of religion, nation, creed, nationality. Granted that a great many do not consider metta important, but all the religions promote it.

I have to admit, all these images of Buddhas meditating do not work for me.
But the full moon does.
Or lotus and the full moon image:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IvGOW1Goi7...oon+sized+.jpg

Or this concept:
https://lotusseed.com.au/2018/06/10/no-need-to-pretend/

In the Buddhist teachings the symbol for compassion is one moon shining in the sky while its image is reflected in one hundred bowls of water.

Imo. trying to be or to become the ‘love & light’ in and to this world is like thinking of ourselves as Jesus dishing out fishes (or sermons) to the starving – it is like our egos are pretending to be or become the sun.

*

[Gem]

Originally Posted by sentient

I have to admit, all these images of Buddhas meditating do not work for me.
But the full moon does.
Or lotus and the full moon image:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_IvGOW1Goi7...oon+sized+.jpg

Or this concept:
https://lotusseed.com.au/2018/06/10/no-need-to-pretend/

That's well said!

Imo. trying to be or to become the ‘love & light’ in and to this world is like thinking of ourselves as Jesus dishing out fishes (or sermons) to the starving – it is like our egos are pretending to be or become the sun.
*

[sky]

Originally Posted by Samana

.

"Broad View, Boundless Heart" by Ajahn Amaro and Ajahn Passano is definately worth reading. It's a little PDF book about the Brahmaviharas, which are the qualities of loving-kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity.


https://www.amaravati.org/dhamma-boo...undless-heart/


_/|\_

Thanks

[7luminaries]

Originally Posted by Molearner

7luminaries,

First of all, for me to comment on metta is a little ridiculous for I come as a novice to this term(having little familiarity with Buddhism) so my comments came solely from a questioning perspective seeking for understanding. I did qualify my observation by using the word 'necessarily'. I meant with the understanding that I came to that it would radiate without words/actions and would essentially be observable as an 'aura'.
To me it is only logical that words and actions would naturally proceed from such an individual. But these words/actions would, in no way, shock the recipient. They would simply affirm what they already had garnered intuitively or via spirit. Sometimes there is no situation for interaction(passing on sidewalk, etc) but one can still be blessed by the simple presence of one with this genuine quality.

Molearner, hello there. Thank you for your kind response to my opening question and in no way do I think any comments are ridiculous, questions or otherwise. My hope is that on a thread about lovingkindness, folks can and will muster the effort to be kind to one another, so I hope that's been your experience

Also, perhaps my opening question didn't really capture my thoughts on the topic. Just in case, here is the rest...

I do see Gem mentioned that one's manner and one's actions proceed accordingly -- that last bit is probably the most pressing portion of it all for me. Perhaps that's just where I observe the truth of it is so often tested in my own life. And I do know he and many others have spoken at length about the awareness we strive to bring to each moment.

But I also observe a good many take that bit for granted. I use the term "spontaneously arising" very sparingly. Even the universe itself is recreated in each moment from "the field of potential" (or whatever physicists may call it)...and what maintains or supports that? LOL...in truth, as far as we know, nothing is automatic or a given eternally and yet we tend to often gloss over that. We say change is a given but that just means essentially means nothing is a given. All at some point arises by choice, by conscious awareness. It's just generally above our pay grade.

The truth on the ground is that all that metta will tend to require some ongoing, sustained level of conscious awareness to be conveyed in word and deed. And some level of meaningful focus or effort or prioritisation, which conveys at some fundamental level that others matter equally to oneself. Else why bother as it's all about you, all day/all the time?

And, IMO it goes nearly without saying that this work is meaningful. This work of valuing others is important. And certainly whilst practice is key, nonetheless it can at times be difficult, even very much so. When we begin to recognise the worth of this work and to accord it its intrinsic value, then we can render all that we do for one another that much more visible. When we name it and honor it, we can make it that much more real in the realm of what is.

Peace & blessings
7L

I agree we certainly cannot interact directly with everyone, and that's ok.

I also do think that over time, generally those in the habit of being kind will tend to be kind as a seeming "default mode". But IMO this is not only reflective of an inner state but equally of the ongoing choice to be kind, even if another is short, or is upset, or makes assumptions, or cuts us off in traffic or in the queue, or whatever the case may be in the normal course of daily life. These may be mutually causal much of the time but ultimately most of us will have many occasions -- almost an infinite number -- in which to take conscious choices to do this or that. To be kind, or not.

My point is that we may radiate inner peace and such, and our aura may well look different -- and that may be a lovely thing and it may well touch and inspire others. But then again, if it doesn't and we could all see it and it was "just average", would it invalidate the graciousness and the kindness that we share or give to others? I think some aspects of life such as lovingkindness will and probably should forever resist uniform quantification or measurement in some way, and I am ok with that as well.

Many folks are likely not as sensitive to the auras, &/or are less bothered by human failings and fluctuations in an aura because it's ok to be imperfect and as we are. The mass of humanity may likely respond more surely and deeply to words and deeds (including a kind touch or gesture) of reliable kindness and compassion. And I think that's ok too.

It may be a genuine outpouring without thought in most cases with the master -- but nonetheless, we are all human and most of us will be challenged variously where we are vulnerable and it's in those moments in particular that we choose consciously to be kind.

A master may tell you he or she chooses consciously because our focus and presence in service is important, even if they could float by rote. I'm not a master but personally I would say that taking the hard decisions and choosing to be present and take conscious choices is a precious and radiant thing when it's hard. But it's arguably even more so when you can float by rote. I can't vouch for any of this 100% on my own experience...it's more a kenning which is based on my experience thus far. And I'm ok with that as well.

Peace & blessings
7L

[7luminaries]

I have had a lifelong obstacle to giving heartfelt lovingkindness to my dad. Lovingkindness yes. Heartfelt, no. Not in some ways. It still rests mainly on compassion and pity.
I accept him as he is and I do acknowledge that he is doing the best he can from where he is at.

When he was sick, he made a noticeable effort to reach out more. However, as he's recovered, oddly he's become more fearful and rigid. He's moved far to the right politically.
I can hold most folks' politics at arm's length since there are many reasons people could do or stand for this or that.
But it's difficult to bridge the gap fully with my dad when it removes one of the only pillars of commonality and respect I had for him previously...i.e., that he had supported others who were marginalized, weaker, and more vulnerable in society.

On the one hand, I have for many years expected nothing from him but (hopefully) courtesy and respect and that wasn't always forthcoming either
I haven't judged him for his lack of respect toward women and chalked it up to a generational thing (he's 70). He has discussed in recent years how he has trouble interacting with women who don't relate to men sexually, because he is apparently at a loss as to how do deal with them. He cannot wrap his head around it.
Professional woman, lesbians, women minding their business...all of them cause a mental disconnect.

So I realise he may not understand his daughter either because I don't relate to men this way.
It's not at all a genuine approach. It's manipulative, rather, but it's what he knows.
But now I have to relate to him with very little common ground. Yet, if we don't put effort into visiting on occasion, he will then interpret it as disrespect.
I do engage in meaningful convo...my brother is understandably a bit wary these days (LOL). I strive for a continually neutral tone, which is doable but not always easy.

Lovingkindness is the twin of discipline, discernment, and justice.
It's hard to know if I am always striking the right balance with someone who I'd otherwise have nothing much to discuss. But whom I do care for and don't wish to offend or upset.
Is metta practice enough to guide the way here, or does anyone have any concrete guidance or insight? Is it alright that I don't feel a great deal of warmth toward dad's personality? I usually am aware of being scrutinised and judged (LOL) for what I am /am not feeling. He has always been the "feelings" police because he is so easily put out...it's effing relentless, LOL!!!

I do feel warmth and appreciation for his invitation to visit, for when he opens his home and puts us up and feeds us when we come, and I always note that as well. I do like hearing about how the rest of the family is doing.

Just thought I'd share some of my ongoing challenges on this topic...

I wonder if anyone else has had struggles of their own in this area, particularly with those you have to see on an ongoing or regular (perhaps daily) basis. Your family, your children, your partner, your mates, your boss or coworkers...

If so (and only if you care to share) -- can you could relate, or do you had some thoughts or insights?

Peace & blessings
7L

[sky]

Originally Posted by 7luminaries

I have had a lifelong obstacle to giving heartfelt lovingkindness to my dad. Lovingkindness yes. Heartfelt, no. Not in some ways. It still rests mainly on compassion and pity.
I accept him as he is and I do acknowledge that he is doing the best he can from where he is at.

When he was sick, he made a noticeable effort to reach out more. However, as he's recovered, oddly he's become more fearful and rigid. He's moved far to the right politically.
I can hold most folks' politics at arm's length since there are many reasons people could do or stand for this or that.
But it's difficult to bridge the gap fully with my dad when it removes one of the only pillars of commonality and respect I had for him previously...i.e., that he had supported others who were marginalized, weaker, and more vulnerable in society.

On the one hand, I have for many years expected nothing from him but (hopefully) courtesy and respect and that wasn't always forthcoming either
I haven't judged him for his lack of respect toward women and chalked it up to a generational thing (he's 70). He has discussed in recent years how he has trouble interacting with women who don't relate to men sexually, because he is apparently at a loss as to how do deal with them. He cannot wrap his head around it.
Professional woman, lesbians, women minding their business...all of them cause a mental disconnect.

So I realise he may not understand his daughter either because I don't relate to men this way.
It's not at all a genuine approach. It's manipulative, rather, but it's what he knows.
But now I have to relate to him with very little common ground. Yet, if we don't put effort into visiting on occasion, he will then interpret it as disrespect.
I do engage in meaningful convo...my brother is understandably a bit wary these days (LOL). I strive for a continually neutral tone, which is doable but not always easy.

Lovingkindness is the twin of discipline, discernment, and justice.
It's hard to know if I am always striking the right balance with someone who I'd otherwise have nothing much to discuss. But whom I do care for and don't wish to offend or upset.
Is metta practice enough to guide the way here, or does anyone have any concrete guidance or insight? Is it alright that I don't feel a great deal of warmth toward dad's personality? I usually am aware of being scrutinised and judged (LOL) for what I am /am not feeling. He has always been the "feelings" police because he is so easily put out...it's effing relentless, LOL!!!

I do feel warmth and appreciation for his invitation to visit, for when he opens his home and puts us up and feeds us when we come, and I always note that as well. I do like hearing about how the rest of the family is doing.

Just thought I'd share some of my ongoing challenges on this topic...

I wonder if anyone else has had struggles of their own in this area, particularly with those you have to see on an ongoing or regular (perhaps daily) basis. Your family, your children, your partner, your mates, your boss or coworkers...

If so (and only if you care to share) -- can you could relate, or do you had some thoughts or insights?

Peace & blessings
7L

'" Lovingkindness yes. Heartfelt, no."

If it's not heartfelt it cannot be loving-kindness. Maybe if you dig deep you can find the obstacles that are stopping it from being heartfelt, if you find the reason then you can work on it and hopefully find answers to help you move on...

[7luminaries]

Hello there Sky...your response prompted me to reflect further, and to clarify.

"It" is heartfelt but it's the conflation of the meanings of the word that needed my further examination. Is "it" my feelings or is it my intention or engagement? That's what I needed to determine. We can be present and authentic and should not be castigated for what we feel.

But what I feel is precisely where the tension often is with dad. Because of the internal feelings police , an authority which I still encouter directly whenever I visit. Intentions are put upon me for how I should "feel" and which then find me wanting, hahahaha. What a drag

The truth is, it's not so much that I "feel" anything for him, including anything strongly negative. Of course, I do love him and want his best. But as to the feeling, it's generally pretty neutral -- though of course he can say and do some disturbing things. I saw from a very young age that he has his own rather severe limitations and has done (more or less) whatever he could or was able to do. Therefore you meet him where he is at...with great caution and reserve, and with strongly centred ownership and boundaries.

We'll probably never be super close...my brother has said the same and has long felt dad was indifferent, cold, and uncaring. Privately, he doesn't know the worst of it and that's probably a good thing.

I think dad confided in me (rather harshly and cruelly) much more, as a dumping grounds, so conversely I probably have more understanding and compassion for him. On some level, I could not deeply connect to him personally because his cruelty was dehumanising. This approach was ultimately just so impersonal that I wasn't able to deeply engage with him. I realise his "methods" wouldn't necessarily work this way with everyone though, hahaha and many would be viscerally disgusted, appalled, or enraged at his actions.

Over the years, I am not indifferent and much he does can be deeply disturbing, but rather I just accustomed over a lifetime to not being much attached. So I examine myself to be certain I am engaging enough. Despite everything, I have always felt it's important to be there in whatever way we can.

It's heartfelt in its intent an dauthenticity, in other words, and frankly I am proud of the relationship I have maintained with him. But it's not the same "feeling" as I have for others who engage me personally, because that simply is what it is. And so occasionally my posts reflect how my dad sees us (as not adequately awestruck or worshipful), where I feel guilty for not "feeling" more for him and/or where I may be reflecting on the adequacy of my level of engagement -- which are two separate things and I need to remind myself of that, as well.

Peace & blessings
7L