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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Christianity

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  #21  
Old 28-11-2019, 05:11 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephineBloggs
How about this:


Originally Posted by NoOne
Not sure if somebody else has already mentioned this, but the archetypes in the Fall of Man / Garden of Eden are pre-Christian and are shared across many cultures.

The tree of life is the Human Body's energetic system. This is even acknowledged in Cabbala.

Adam is the Male creative principle (Shiva in Hinduism)
Eve is the female Creative principle (Shakti in Hinduism)

The Serpent is Kundalini. It can give the gift of eternal life and / or infinite knowledge. It is symbolised by the apple, because it is the fruit that is most obviously of a toroid shape, another key to the mysteries of the Universe.

The fruit of the tree of eternal life / infinite knowledge refers to the same substance that is known as Nectar/Ambrosia to the Greeks and Soma/Amrita to the Hindus. Drinking of this is what gives the gods their immortality and unlimited knowledge. It is actually liquid light, which floods the brain upon illumination.

Those that are enlightened, drink of the Soma/Nectar constantly, giving them longevity, but chiefly, intuitive knowledge and a connection the divine. The Halo shown around saints signifies this illumination, resulting from the constant flow of Soma/Nectar into the brain.


The fall of man signifies man's fall from grace, from his previous divine state into that of gross matter. The serpent is shown wrapped around the tree of life facing downwards, which signifies the fall of the Kundalini from its exalted position of contact with the divine to "slithering in the dust".

The Gnostics would agree with this explanation, though the Roman church would vehemently deny it of course.

Sorry, if this was too esoteric, but explaining these concepts properly would require several books, this is a very simplistic attempt at arriving at a synthesis of the various facts available in different cultures and religious/spiritual traditions.
NICELY SAID!
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He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
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  #22  
Old 28-11-2019, 05:16 PM
sky123 sky123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatMan
It means that it would hurt more, it's not the same thing? Well, to me this verse offers a new perspective on what happened before the birth of the material world as we know it.



How many Babies have you given birth to
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  #23  
Old 28-11-2019, 05:32 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatMan
Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

What is this telling you? We know that Adam and Eve had two children after the fall and then Cain found a wife in a distant place but there's no information about more people other than the four so it's the general assumption that they had more children.What if they had more children and these children were born before the fall, how could Eve understand the increasing of the pain of birth if she never experienced it before?
Bible does not say Adam and Eve had only 2 children.

The first child was Cain. Genesis 4:1a "Adam made love to his wife Eve, and she became pregnant and gave birth to Cain. She said, “With the help of the Lord I have brought forth a man.”"

The second child was Abel. Genesis 4:1b "Later she gave birth to his brother Abel."

The third child was Seth. Genesis 4:25 "Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him."

The names of daughters are not mentioned.
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He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
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  #24  
Old 28-11-2019, 05:35 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatMan
This is what I am saying, Cain's wife is Adam and Eve's child that was born prior to the fall, my guess is that they were all ( their children ) spread across the whole Earth after the fall, how could Eve understand the pains of giving birth? Cain and Abel were born after the fall.

This is not my final opinion, this is why I am creating a "debate" here so we can hear more opinions.
Cain and Abel were conceived after the Fall. Therefore, Cain's wife was born after the first born - Cain.
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He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
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  #25  
Old 28-11-2019, 05:37 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatMan
I know, this is usually the common belief, so what do you think, based on the old testament scriptures? I know you have your belief, but based on what was written in the OT.

My point is that Adam and Eve could have had children before the fall, otherwise Eve would not understand the increasing of the pains of child birth.

The Law would forbid incest. To forbid incest implies incest was allowed at one time.
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He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
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  #26  
Old 28-11-2019, 05:40 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatMan
I know you have your beliefs and I respect them, but the focus is on the christian scriptures, from a christian perspective, what do you think, it's possible that Eve could have had already children prior to the fall? That verse leaves this option open to interpretation but to me it seems they already had children.
Genesis 4:1 makes it clear that Eve had children after they were removed from the Garden of Eden.
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He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
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  #27  
Old 28-11-2019, 05:42 PM
ThatMan ThatMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
Cain and Abel were conceived after the Fall. Therefore, Cain's wife was born after the first born - Cain.

This is only an assumption.

I can say the same thing about how I see that verse, that it's an assumption, but to me it seems that they had children prior to the fall, going further, I can assume that there were many men and women spread across the whole Earth.
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  #28  
Old 28-11-2019, 05:43 PM
ThatMan ThatMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
Genesis 4:1 makes it clear that Eve had children after they were removed from the Garden of Eden.

I know, but that verse ( Genesis 3:16 ) makes it so that Eve was already aware of the pains of child birth.
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  #29  
Old 28-11-2019, 06:01 PM
BigJohn BigJohn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatMan
It's about the increasing of the pains of child birth, can you see the difference?

"I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception"

The obvious result of the fall could have been: "Your child birth is going to be painful" or something like that, yet we see an increasing of the pain, in other words, the pain was already there and Eve experienced it, at least this is my impression of that verse.

If I tell someone that I would increase her/his tooth pain, then that person would already be aware of the tooth pain so they will know that it will hurt more, at least this is how I see things.

It does not make sense to tell someone they will feel more pain regarding a specific thing if they never experienced that pain ever before, it make sense to tell them that it will hurt.
If you look at the entity referenced in that scripture, it is

יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֑ים

which is transliterated as Yahweh Elohim and translated as LORD God.

Genesis 4:1 was written by a different author. This is evident with the usage of the expression

יְהוָֽה׃

Which gets transliterated as Yahweh and translated as LORD.

What we are looking at is various author's opinions.

There is nothing wrong in giving opinions: we do it all of the time.
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He dipped the pen into the ink and then faltered for just a second. A tremor had gone through his bowels. To mark the paper was the decisive act. In small clumsy letters he wrote: ........... April 4th, 1984.
..................
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  #30  
Old 28-11-2019, 06:21 PM
ThatMan ThatMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJohn
If you look at the entity referenced in that scripture, it is

יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהִ֑ים

which is transliterated as Yahweh Elohim and translated as LORD God.

Genesis 4:1 was written by a different author. This is evident with the usage of the expression

יְהוָֽה׃

Which gets transliterated as Yahweh and translated as LORD.

What we are looking at is various author's opinions.

There is nothing wrong in giving opinions: we do it all of the time.

Yes I am actually thinking to start to learn greek and hebrew in order to have a better understanding of the scriptures.
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