The Two Truths

[Ground]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I think everyone agrees on the interpretation of the Heart Sutra.

'the interpretation'? There are numerous interpretations.

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I think of the Two Truth doctrine as a means of breaking it down from such a high level. To help explain the reality we all experience with that reality mentioned in the Heart Sutra.

Which of course the 4 Noble Truths fit into.

In brief you believe what you believe is what everybody will come to believe.
Fine!
Actually I do not care about your beliefs because I know better.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

Since I am not a follower of the two truths doctrine I won't answer your questions.

In the prasangika madhyamaka interpretation I prefer all conventionalities are called 'truths for a concealer' (sanskrit: saṃvṛti) and the concealer is ordinary consciousness. So if truths do only appear to a concealing consciousness it doesn't make sense at all to apply the term 'truth' in the affirmative. Therefore there aren't any truths.

If you replace the expression 'the two levels of truth' by the expression 'the two levels of experience' that may be a solution if - and only if - truth is not assigned to any of 'the two levels of experience'.

There is only one Truth :)

That is what it says, that is why it is called the Ultimate Truth.

Yet, how do you say that to people who have no clue as to what they are describing because they are stuck in conventional truth? You have to explain the experience everyone experiences together.

That is what the Two Truths are about.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Ground

'the interpretation'? There are numerous interpretations.


In brief you believe what you believe is what everybody will come to believe.
Fine!
Actually I do not care about your beliefs because I know better.

Yes, many interpretations but with all the same meaning..

It is the teaching on emptiness.

I am just saying from what i am read with regard to the Two Truths and how it is explained.

You will notice I do a lot of posting from the Lankavatra Sutra which comes from the Mind only school of Buddhism.

My next post from that sutra is rather long but is very good at explaining this topic.

[jonesboy]

http://lirs.ru/do/lanka_eng/lanka-nondiacritical.htm

The Blessed One said, "Lord of Lanka, tell me what you mean by duality?"

The Lord of the Rakshasas, (17) who was renewed in his ornaments, full of splendour and beauty, with a diadem, bracelet, and necklace strung with vajra thread, said, "It is said that even dharmas are to be abandoned, and how much more adharmas. Blessed One, why does this dualism exist that we are called upon to abandon? What are adharmas? and what are dharmas? How can there be a duality of things to abandon—a duality that arises from falling into discrimination, from discriminating self-substance where there is none, from [the idea of] things created (bhautika) and uncreated, because the non-differentiating nature of the Alayavijnana is not recognised? Like the seeing of a hair-circle as really existing in the air, [the notion of dualism] belongs to the realm of intellection not exhaustively pur-gated. This being the. case as it should be, how could there be any abandonment [of dharmas and adharmas]?"

Said the Blessed One, "Lord of Lanka, seest thou not that the differentiation of things, such as is perceived in jars and other breakable objects whose nature it is to perish in time, takes place in a realm of discrimination [cherished by] the ignorant? This being so, is it not to be so understood? It is due to discrimination [cherished by] the ignorant that there exists the differentiation of dharma and adharma. Noble wisdom (aryajnana), however, is not to be realised by seeing [things this way]. Lord of Lanka, let it be so with the ignorant who follow the particularised aspect of existence that there are such objects as jars, etc., but it is not so with the wise. One flame of uniform nature rises up depending on houses, mansions, parks, and terraces, and burns them down; while a difference in the flames is seen according to the power of each burning material which varies in length, magnitude, etc. This being so, why (18) is it not to be so understood? The duality of dharma and adharma thus comes into existence. Not only is there seen a fire-flame spreading out in one continuity and yet showing a variety of flames, but from one seed, Lord of Lanka, are produced, also in one continuity, stems, shoots, knots, leaves, petals, flowers, fruit, branches, all individualised. As it is with every external object from which grows [a variety of] objects, so also with internal objects. From ignorance there develop the Skandhas, Dhatus, Ayatanas, with all kinds of objects accompanying, which grow out in the triple world where we have, as we see, happiness, form, speech, and behaviour, each differentiating [infinitely]. The oneness of the Vijnana is grasped variously according to the evolution of an objective world; thus there are seen things inferior, superior, and middling, things defiled and free from defilement, things good and bad. Not only, Lord of Lanka, is there such a difference of conditions in things generally, there is also seen a variety of realisations attained innerly by each Yogin as he treads the path of discipline which constitutes his practice. How much more difference in dharma and adharma do we not see in a world of particulars which is evolved by discrimination? Indeed, we do.

"Lord of Lanka, the differentiation of dharma and adharma comes from discrimination. Lord of Lanka, what are dharmas? That is, they are discriminated by the discriminations cherished by the philosophers, Sravakas, Pratyekabuddhas, and ignorant people. They think that the dharmas headed by quality and substance are produced by causes—[these are the notions] to be abandoned. Such are not to be regarded [as real] because they are appearances (lakshana). It comes from one's clinging [to appearances] that the manifestations of his own Mind are regarded as reality (dharmata). (19) Such things as jars, etc., are products of discrimination conceived by the ignorant, they exist not; their substances are not attainable. The viewing of things from this viewpoint is known as their abandonment.

"What, then, are adharmas? Lord of Lanka, [dharmas] are unattainable as to their selfhood, they are not appearances born of discrimination, they are above causality; there is in them no such [dualistic] happening as is seen as reality and non-reality. This is known as the abandoning of dharmas. What again is meant by the unattainability of dharmas? That is, it is like horns of a hare, or an ***, or a camel, or a horse, or a child conceived by a barren woman. They are dharmas the nature of which is unattainable; they are not to be thought [as real] because they are appearances. They are only talked About in popular parlance if they have any sense at all; they are not to be adhered to as in the case of jars, etc. As these [unrealities] are to be abandoned as not comprehensible by the mind (vijnana), so are things (bhava) of discrimination also to be abandoned. This is called the abandoning of dharmas and adharmas. Lord of Lanka, your question as to the way of abandoning dharmas and adharmas is hereby answered.

"Lord of Lanka, thou sayest again that thou hast asked [this question] of the Tathagatas of the past who were Arhats and Fully-Enlightened Ones and that it was solved by them. Lord of Lanka, that which is spoken of as the past belongs to discrimination; as the past is thus a discriminated [idea], even so are the [ideas] of the future and the present. Because of reality (dharmata) the Tathagatas do not discriminate, they go beyond discrimination and futile reasoning, they do not follow (20) the individuation-aspect of forms (rupa) except when [reality] is disclosed for the edification of the unknowing and for the sake of their happiness.1 It is by transcendental wisdom (prajna) that the Tathagata performs deeds transcending forms (animittacara); therefore, what constitutes the Tathagatas in essence as well as in body is wisdom (jnana). They do not discriminate, nor are they discriminated. Wherefore do they not discriminate the Manas? Because discrimination is of the self, of soul, of personality. How do they not discriminate? The Manovijnana is meant for the objective world where causality prevails as regards forms, appearances, conditions, and figures. Therefore, discrimination and non-discrimination must be transcended.

"Lord of Lanka, beings are appearances, they are like figures painted on the wall, they have no sensibility [or consciousness]. Lord of Lanka, all that is in the world is devoid of work and action because all things have no reality, and there is nothing heard, nothing hearing. Lord of Lanka, all that is in the world is like an image magically transformed. This is not comprehended by the philosophers and the ignorant. Lord of Lanka, he who thus sees things, is the one who sees truthfully. Those who see things otherwise walk in discrimination; as they depend on discrimination, they cling to dualism. It is like seeing one's own image reflected in a mirror, or one's own shadow in the water, or in the moonlight, or seeing one's shadow in the house, or hearing an echo in the valley. People grasping their own shadows of discrimination (21) uphold the discrimination of dharma and adharma and, failing to carry out the abandonment of the dualism, they go on discriminating and never attain tranquillity, By tranquillity is meant oneness (ekagra), and oneness gives birth to the highest Samadhi, which is gained by entering into the womb of Tathagatahood, which is the realm of noble wisdom realised in one's inmost self."

[Visitor]

Suffering is a fear-story we have in our mind about pain.
Take the fear away and the suffering goes away too, though pain may remain.

Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.
That is the truth of it.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Visitor

Suffering is a fear-story we have in our mind about pain.
Take the fear away and the suffering goes away too, though pain may remain.

Pain is inevitable, but suffering is optional.
That is the truth of it.

Isn't the pain a story as well?

[Visitor]

Pain is a nervous system signal to the brain. It is a sensation. The mind originally associates with this sensation as a message pointing to an identifier (label) called pain. Anything other than an identifier starts to use more words, and this is the start of a story about pain.

Pain may start a story about pain. A fear-based story about pain leads to the idea of suffering.

[naturesflow]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Isn't the pain a story as well?

Everything is a story or another's as you show by using Buddhist knowledge to interpret and sift through for your own awareness and connections. You enjoy that relationship and learning space. Like any learning space I guess.

When the story of the external falls away, then you start speaking more aware and open without the need to be too caught up in any of that.

Of course that space is often sought as a guide for itself also in the connection it chooses and naturally then guides others in the same way of that focus.

Such is the nature of life. We choose where we focus with what we hold close to our own awareness or heart and share it.

We do have our true nature that doesn't have to play follow the leader once aware of course.. In the potential of all beings as I see all could/can be leaders.

When one is not fully integrated and not feeling complete in themselves or holding the presence of their "ground of being" as ground would say..(I hope I got that right as far as the "Correct" terminology goes) naturally truth is seen in division or in parts. But the truth in that grounded being awareness is really empty of anything, so truth is just what is as the movements of life moving itself and believing it has found a truth that is solid and fixed, much like people saying there is an ultimate truth. They believe this. They create this through belief.

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by naturesflow

Everything is a story or another's as you show by using Buddhist knowledge to interpret and sift through for your own awareness and connections. You enjoy that relationship and learning space. Like any learning space I guess.

When the story of the external falls away, then you start speaking more aware and open without the need to be too caught up in any of that.

Of course that space is often sought as a guide for itself also in the connection it chooses and naturally then guides others in the same way of that focus.

Such is the nature of life. We choose where we focus with what we hold close to our own awareness or heart and share it.

We do have our true nature that doesn't have to play follow the leader once aware of course.. In the potential of all beings as I see all could/can be leaders.

When one is not fully integrated and not feeling complete in themselves or holding the presence of their "ground of being" as ground would say..(I hope I got that right as far as the "Correct" terminology goes) naturally truth is seen in division or in parts. But the truth in that grounded being awareness is really empty of anything, so truth is just what is as the movements of life moving itself and believing it has found a truth that is solid and fixed, much like people saying there is an ultimate truth. They believe this. They create this through belief.

That belief is called Buddhism :)

[jonesboy]

Originally Posted by Visitor

Pain is a nervous system signal to the brain. It is a sensation. The mind originally associates with this sensation as a message pointing to an identifier (label) called pain. Anything other than an identifier starts to use more words, and this is the start of a story about pain.

Pain may start a story about pain. A fear-based story about pain leads to the idea of suffering.

It is all energy.

The pain from mental suffering is a thought which we all know one can move beyond.

Physical pain is of the same energy, great masters have also shown that one can move beyond the pain and limitations of the body.