Balance and perfection.

[iamthat]

Originally Posted by spiritualll

Suffering does not add to the balance of this world. It brings disharmony, hatred, fear, etc. If you think that it's balance, then why there is the concept of heaven, a place with no suffering? Even in buddhism, one strives for nirvana, which is eternal and does not need suffering.

Honestly, the question of suffering amazes me.

I don't think that suffering adds to the balance of the universe.

I have studied a lot the concept of evil and I still have no answer why evil exists in the universe. There are many theories but none brings enough light to the question.

Indeed, but what drives us to seek heaven or nirvana, the end of suffering? We are driven by the existence of suffering and the fact that we want to end our suffering.

If there was no suffering, if human lives were devoid of suffering (whether physical, emotional or mental) then how much would we learn? It is the fact that we suffer which makes us want to go within to find that centre of peace and stillness where there is no suffering.

And what is evil? The esoteric definition of evil is that it is the tendency towards materialism as opposed to the aspiration towards spirituality. This tendency towards materialism serves a purpose during the involutionary cycle of creation, as consciousness descends into matter. This same tendency then becomes an obstacle during the evolutionary cycle (when consciousness seeks to return to spirit) because we are still drawn to matter. This is the challenge we all face.

Peace.

[Nowayout]

I once heard it said we exist in 3 basic planes all building on the other:

The Earth plane or the material, things grow here like plants and trees.

The animal plane, where animals have instincts, bellies to fill, offspring, and bodies that can move through time and space. Personal suffering is not "realized" in these two basic planes but felt no doubt.

Then we have the human spirit that is aware of its place in time and space, is aware that it need not suffer and can be creative spiritually to overcome this spiritual anguish.

Animals can be creative and they do have intelligence of a natural sort but they never become say... suicidal. Humans suffer from spiritual anguish and that's why we can look at the world and ask why all this suffering?

Some people have everything and they commit suicide, while some have nothing and can still smile at life.

So why all this suffering, it's a good question. Jesus wept at the tomb of Lazarus it is said because he to could see death and suffering as a fallen nature. Maybe one day there will be a new world and a new creation but for now, it needs to be this way?

Some say when spiritual darkness entered the world, the metaphorical fall, death followed because paradise could not become eternally stained.

And the fall has a place in the... divine plan... is my view on it I guess.

Maybe there is a path... I could not live with this lot... forever, however...

With spiritual wisdom comes understanding, then nature takes its proper course.

Can that ever be without death, decay, physical suffering, would that even end our spiritual anguish?

[HereAndNow]

Originally Posted by Iamit

To say that it is to allow free will or suchlike simply means the question moves on to "Why did the divine allow free will?". Wherever the question is moved to, it cannot be avoided that an all powerful all knowing creator is responsible for suffering.

But why not assume that the phenomenal world is the cosmic play of THAT which has manifested as all. And that our thinking is not quite capable of rationally understanding why THAT manifests the way it does.

And if we want to stay with the idea of oneness or non-duality the we cannot say that THAT is the God who decides for this or that reason to create something outside itself. Then we have duality - the creator and the created. If we want to believe in oneness then there is only THAT, we are also THAT, happiness is also THAT, suffering is also THAT ... then it just is so and cannot be otherwise.

[HereAndNow]

Originally Posted by Iamit

I first heard it described by Tony Parsons at one of his meetings in London. I've not followed it up by any reading but suspect it might be a very old idea.

Does anyone know of its source or origin?

I've never looked at Taoism this way but it seems that the concept of Yin and Yang in Taoism can be seen exactly as this balancing mechanism you wrote about.
http://shawcss.tripod.com/Deity/content/deity_03.htm

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by spiritualll

Suffering does not add to the balance of this world. It brings disharmony, hatred, fear, etc. If you think that it's balance, then why there is the concept of heaven, a place with no suffering? Even in buddhism, one strives for nirvana, which is eternal and does not need suffering.

Honestly, the question of suffering amazes me.

I don't think that suffering adds to the balance of the universe.

I have studied a lot the concept of evil and I still have no answer why evil exists in the universe. There are many theories but none brings enough light to the question.

Suffering may be created (inflicted) to balance (through expression) feelings of anger flowing from deep hurt possibly creating a cycle of violence.

The cycle may be ended by the ability to forgive. and/or exaustion. Which way it goes may depend on the characters involved. Either way it could be viewed as an attempted balancing in play.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by HereAndNow

But why not assume that the phenomenal world is the cosmic play of THAT which has manifested as all. And that our thinking is not quite capable of rationally understanding why THAT manifests the way it does.

And if we want to stay with the idea of oneness or non-duality the we cannot say that THAT is the God who decides for this or that reason to create something outside itself. Then we have duality - the creator and the created. If we want to believe in oneness then there is only THAT, we are also THAT, happiness is also THAT, suffering is also THAT ... then it just is so and cannot be otherwise.

Yes but we do have examples of the cosmic play having patterns such as symbiosis, a balancing mechanism that supports the non dual idea that there is no-one making decisions even though they appear to be.

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Nowayout

I once heard it said we exist in 3 basic planes all building on the other:

The Earth plane or the material, things grow here like plants and trees.

The animal plane, where animals have instincts, bellies to fill, offspring, and bodies that can move through time and space. Personal suffering is not "realized" in these two basic planes but felt no doubt.

Then we have the human spirit that is aware of its place in time and space, is aware that it need not suffer and can be creative spiritually to overcome this spiritual anguish.

Animals can be creative and they do have intelligence of a natural sort but they never become say... suicidal. Humans suffer from spiritual anguish and that's why we can look at the world and ask why all this suffering?

Some people have everything and they commit suicide, while some have nothing and can still smile at life.

So why all this suffering, it's a good question. Jesus wept at the tomb of Lazarus it is said because he to could see death and suffering as a fallen nature. Maybe one day there will be a new world and a new creation but for now, it needs to be this way?

Some say when spiritual darkness entered the world, the metaphorical fall, death followed because paradise could not become eternally stained.

And the fall has a place in the... divine plan... is my view on it I guess.

Maybe there is a path... I could not live with this lot... forever, however...

With spiritual wisdom comes understanding, then nature takes its proper course.

Can that ever be without death, decay, physical suffering, would that even end our spiritual anguish?

The end of feeling disconnected from the divine is bound to be completly trancendental. I know of no other way of being totally trancendental than to include ALL as The Divine/Oneness manifest, including suffering. If there is anything somehow left 'outside' of Oneness (a contradiction in terms), the trancendance would be incomplete and the feeling of disconnection would remain.

Luckily, if All is One, the feeling of disconnection itself would not be disconnected from Oneness, for it must already be Oneness appearing as that feeling!!!

:)

[Nowayout]

All for one, one for all.

All have a place in the one, that is cherished by the one or why all this?

Go back to the one and tell me what it said without two. Yet..It simply needs nothing, we need.. "it".

Your hinting on the notion that "God" oneness? is all you without boundaries?

Are you... that. Are you God in your totality? I'm more humbled at times and life makes sure of that.

And then we get the Trinity, another fold in the prismatic fields of love.

I don't know, just happy to give thanks.

Do you see the difference in our view?

We are that in participation but we are not boundless?

[Iamit]

Originally Posted by Nowayout

All for one, one for all.

All have a place in the one, that is cherished by the one or why all this?

Go back to the one and tell me what it said without two. Yet..It simply needs nothing, we need.. "it".

Your hinting on the notion that "God" oneness? is all you without boundaries?

Are you... that. Are you God in your totality? I'm more humbled at times and life makes sure of that.

And then we get the Trinity, another fold in the prismatic fields of love.

I don't know, just happy to give thanks.

Do you see the difference in our view?

We are that in participation but we are not boundless?

If All is not One then yes there is separation and disconnection not just as an illusion. But if All is One there can only be the illusion of separation and disconnection where there is none.

I suspect there lies the root of our disagreement. But from the All is One perspective I am describing, accepting that disconnection is not an illusion, is completly connected for it must be Oneness arising as that acceptance.

If Oneness is All and bounless then nothing needs to change for there is already only boundlessness despite appearances to the contrary.

:)

[Nowayout]

Originally Posted by Iamit

If All is not One then yes there is separation and disconnection not just as an illusion. But if All is One there can only be the illusion of separation and disconnection where there is none.

I suspect there lies the root of our disagreement. But from the All is One perspective I am describing, accepting that disconnection is not an illusion, is completly connected for it must be Oneness arising as that acceptance.

If Oneness is All and bounless then nothing needs to change for there is already only boundlessness despite appearances to the contrary.

:)

All is the ground of all things visible and invisible. I can live with that.

There is more to the "all" let's say, God... than we know.

God being the ground of all things can still eliminate creation, I don't have that power being a created soul. Make a new heaven and a new earth?

I could go back to that place I was before I got here, which was a timeless nothing.

This is the clue I get that I'm created. My soul could be eternal, but I'm guessing on that too.

In truth, I have no memory of past lives.

So did the all just wake up with me? I doubt it.