Where Do We Go at Death if not heaven or hell?

[Molearner]

Sorry for the double entry. This is not a subtle point or a technicality. Faith is an acquired thing......something that have been given to one.....a gift. We run the danger of believing that because we believe certain things that this acquired belief of ours is the reason for our salvation.....this belief becomes the author of our works.....and we can easily be mislead into believing that our works are the things that impel God to bestow grace on us. This is an errant belief in every way.

[soulforce]

Originally Posted by VinceField

I know Jesus' teachings very well. I guess your question wasn't so clear. I'm still not exactly sure what you mean by ".. that you can see separation from Jesus.." Separation in what regard, in respect to what? If you just wanted to know how well I know Jesus' teachings, you should've just asked that.

I don't think quantity matters over quality. Scripture itself is of the highest quality in regards to truth and as a teaching tool. When an idea is stated repeatedly in scripture, it is probably a good idea to note it and take it to heart.

Jesus and the apostles state over and over again that faith in Christ is the only means of salvation. Thus to love without faith in Christ is a mere work that has no saving value. In the bible, a work is an action that corresponds to God's law, and it is made crystal clear that we are not saved by works, but by grace through faith. Good works (love) are the fruit of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that occurs when faith is put in Jesus.

You are right that faith without works is dead, but my point is that it's not the works that save, it's the faith. The faith is the cause, the works are the effect. One who claims to be in Christ yet does not love God and love his neighbor has "dead" faith, counterfeit faith, false, unsaving faith. He who has true faith in Christ will love God and his neighbor by definition. So, getting to the point, it is simply unbiblical to say that love is the way to heaven. In both new and old testament, God's grace given to those with faith in Him has always been the ticket to heaven.

I just assumed that in your studies of other religions that something didn't connect with you to Jesus. That's what I meant by separation. Christianity connected you to Jesus (no separation) and other religions didn't connect you to Jesus (separation). So I wanted to know what separated you from Jesus in those other religions.

You can learn about what some one knows about Jesus without directly asking for their position on Christianity which is rehearsed and predictable. If you want to learn the truth, look at what their perspectives are on the world and their treatment of other people. That's where you will find the measure in their understanding.

Saved by grace has been misconstrued by evangelicals who live by this creed to mean ones saved always saved. The only thing you need to do according to them is say one prayer and viola you're in the Jesus club. To be clear this isn't what Jesus taught, it's what Paul alluded to in a number of his passages. Unfortunately though, he brought us little context on the kind of faith he was describing. So we have the passage salvation with works in the book of James(which is additive not inclusive) that's where the disagreement begins among Catholics and Protestants.

James makes it very clear that faith isn't the precursor to works, it's parallel to works. In fact he even implies it can also be seen as the precursor to faith. Here's where I get this idea from.

James 2:Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

By my works, not by faith only. You claim that faith that has no works is counterfeit but I disagree, because I've never met a Christian who gave freely or done the right thing 100% of the time. If it's counterfeit faith or faith or no faith, then when you act or not act describes the condition of your faith in that moment. However if I were to to ask you 100 times do you have faith, you will say 100 times yes I do. So then are you lying?

Faith is nurtured via good works. If a person didn't have faith in Christianity, but had faith in love is that so inherently different? If that love breed good works (fruit) and didn't break any commandments wouldn't God know the heart and the faith of the individual?

Ultimately every good deed done out of your poverty is accredited to you as righteousness. Works demonstrates 100% of the time your faithfulness to God. It doesn't matter your knowledge of Jesus for if you do as he says, you know where to find him. When Christians think you need to hear about Jesus in order to be saved, I question their understanding of Jesus.

Anyways I personally know that we don't need salvation but I'm still interested in Christian theology. What separates Christianity from most other religions is the precept of salvation. Salvation is mandatory for membership into the most exclusive club in the world, heaven without it you don't belong. Accept that Jesus made it clear that the kind of worship God desires is compassion.

P.S.

If I agree that scripture has the highest quality, then all scripture is equal, then you don't need to be redundant in your thinking, one verse is enough. How often something appears in the bible is not a measure of it's importance.

[Molearner]

[quote=soulforce
Anyways I personally know that we don't need salvation but I'm still interested in Christian theology. What separates Christianity from most other religions is the precept of salvation. Salvation is mandatory for membership into the most exclusive club in the world, heaven without it you don't belong. Accept that Jesus made it clear that the kind of worship God desires is compassion.

[/QUOTE]

soulforce,

I am a little mystified. Your orginal post included this phrase: "Grace as I understand it means freewill. God loves us because it's his freewill to love us. We HAVE faith because God's love for us". Was that in your initial post? If so it is totally in agreement with the point I was trying to make....:)

Now in regards to this statement of yours: "What seperates Christianity from most other religions is the precept of salvation"......I have a different view opinion. I happen to be in agreement with the assessment of C.S. Lewis. This outlines his view:

"During a British conference on comparative religions, experts from around the world debated what, if any, belief was unique to the Christian faith. They began eliminating possibilities. Incarnation? Other religions had different versions of gods' appearing in human form. Resurrection? Again, other religions had accounts of return from death. The debate went on for some time until C. S. Lewis wandered into the room. "What's the rumpus about?" he asked, and heard in reply that his colleagues were discussing Christianity's unique contribution among world religions. Lewis responded, "Oh, that's easy. It's grace."

After some discussion, the conferees had to agree. The notion of God's love coming to us free of charge, no strings attached, seems to go against every instinct of humanity. The Buddhist eight-fold path, the Hindu doctrine of karma, the Jewish covenant, and the Muslim code of law -- each of these offers a way to earn approval. Only Christianity dares to make God's love unconditional."

Offered for your consideration...........

[sky]

Originally Posted by Molearner

soulforce,

I am a little mystified. Your orginal post included this phrase: "Grace as I understand it means freewill. God loves us because it's his freewill to love us. We HAVE faith because God's love for us". Was that in your initial post? If so it is totally in agreement with the point I was trying to make....:)

Now in regards to this statement of yours: "What seperates Christianity from most other religions is the precept of salvation"......I have a different view opinion. I happen to be in agreement with the assessment of C.S. Lewis. This outlines his view:

"During a British conference on comparative religions, experts from around the world debated what, if any, belief was unique to the Christian faith. They began eliminating possibilities. Incarnation? Other religions had different versions of gods' appearing in human form. Resurrection? Again, other religions had accounts of return from death. The debate went on for some time until C. S. Lewis wandered into the room. "What's the rumpus about?" he asked, and heard in reply that his colleagues were discussing Christianity's unique contribution among world religions. Lewis responded, "Oh, that's easy. It's grace."

After some discussion, the conferees had to agree. The notion of God's love coming to us free of charge, no strings attached, seems to go against every instinct of humanity. The Buddhist eight-fold path, the Hindu doctrine of karma, the Jewish covenant, and the Muslim code of law -- each of these offers a way to earn approval. Only Christianity dares to make God's love unconditional."

Offered for your consideration...........

What has the Noble Eightfold Path to do with approval, and from who/what ?

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by sky123

What has the Noble Eightfold Path to do with approval, and from who/what ?

sky123,

Basically the eightfold path outlines the WORKS necessary to achieve nirvana......which we might label as enlightenment and/or heaven. The 'from who' would be liberation from your self/ego.

[VinceField]

Originally Posted by soulforce

James makes it very clear that faith isn't the precursor to works, it's parallel to works. In fact he even implies it can also be seen as the precursor to faith. Here's where I get this idea from.

James 2:Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Again you are divorcing one verse from its proper context and the rest of scripture. I've already proved that salvation is by faith not works. James is simply saying that the proof of his faith is his works, which is just what I said in my previous posts- the proof of true saving faith is living out God's commands, or in other words, good works.

My claim that faith without works is counterfeit is exactly what scripture says: faith without works is dead. The sign of true faith is that you no longer PRACTICE sin. This means continue to do something even though you know it is wrong. That doesn't mean a true Christian must perfect.

I recommend studying the Bible with more attention and in its proper context. It seems your understanding can improve greatly.

What's the difference between a loving person without faith and a loving person with faith? The difference is that God himself has offered himself as a sacrifice for our sins and the only way to receive this gift is through faith. No person is perfect, including a loving non-Christian, so they will have to answer for their sins, even if they committed less than a non-loving person. You don't get a get-out-of-jail-free pass from a judge for doing good things if you've broken the law. You are judged for your trespasses. But if the judge chooses to pay your fine for you on the condition that you put your faith in him, then any smart person would accept that offer.

You claim that you know you don't need salvation, but that is absurd. The reality is that unless your foundation for truth and knowledge is the one true omniscience God, you can't know anything. Tell me what your standard for truth and knowledge is and I'll show you why it doesn't provide the necessary preconditions for intelligibility, logic, morality, and every other aspect of your experience.

[Molearner]

Originally Posted by VinceField

I recommend studying the Bible with more attention and in its proper context. It seems your understanding can improve greatly.

What's the difference between a loving person without faith and a loving person with faith? The difference is that God himself has offered himself as a sacrifice for our sins and the only way to receive this gift is through faith.

VinceField,

I am sorry but you are the one that needs to study the Bible with more attention.....and especially context so that your understanding can improve.
Once again, for the record.....faith is a gift of grace. One does not receive salvation because of faith......but receives it because of grace. One is made strong in his faith when he realizes that the faith he has is purely a gift of grace.......he can then fully trust his faith. But first he must acknowledge that his faith came from God......was a gift of God......and was a grace.

I would suggest going back to Ephesians 2:8 which you only quote in part(and therefore out of context)........"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith----and THIS not from yourselves, it is the gift of God------not by works, so that no one can boast." What do you think THIS refers to? It refers to what it immediately follows......faith. The very thing that Paul warns about is exactly what Christians are guilty of.......they boast about their faith. A Christian can have only one legitimate response. and that is gratitude and thanksgiving. And that can only come from humility in the face of God. I asked this question before and you never responded......"What comes first, grace or faith?" You have yet to answer.

[soulforce]

I know, I'm reading the scripture in the proper context. James goes into great detail how he wants us to view the passage. Unless you're able to provide a valid reason why my interpretation isn't contextually consistent with James 2 your claim is baseless.

I've already proved that salvation is by faith not works. James is simply saying that the proof of his faith is his works, which is just what I said in my previous posts- the proof of true saving faith is living out God's commands, or in other words, good works.

"The proof of his faith is his works". Exactly.

My claim that faith without works is counterfeit is exactly what scripture says: faith without works is dead. The sign of true faith is that you no longer PRACTICE sin. This means continue to do something even though you know it is wrong. That doesn't mean a true Christian must perfect.

Are you implying that it's a sin to ignore a homeless person in need? Although I would agree with you to an extent it's an opportunity lost, I wouldn't call it "practicing sin". You might be conflating two different arguments now.

I recommend studying the Bible with more attention and in its proper context. It seems your understanding can improve greatly.

I encourage you to heed that advise too, because you aren't very thoughtful in your hermeneutics.

What's the difference between a loving person without faith and a loving person with faith? The difference is that God himself has offered himself as a sacrifice for our sins and the only way to receive this gift is through faith. No person is perfect, including a loving non-Christian, so they will have to answer for their sins, even if they committed less than a non-loving person. You don't get a get-out-of-jail-free pass from a judge for doing good things if you've broken the law. You are judged for your trespasses. But if the judge chooses to pay your fine for you on the condition that you put your faith in him, then any smart person would accept that offer.

You've broken no law if you do good things. The pharisees tried that same hermeneutic tactic with Jesus too and he pretty much put them in their place. God desires mercy over sacrifice.

You claim that you know you don't need salvation, but that is absurd. The reality is that unless your foundation for truth and knowledge is the one true omniscience God, you can't know anything.

I know I don't need salvation because I'm already walking with God in a place you call heaven, I call it the life beyond lives. Only a portion of me is living out my life as a human being. I chose to incarnate and I know more than you think is possible for a human being.

Tell me what your standard for truth and knowledge is and I'll show you why it doesn't provide the necessary preconditions for intelligibility, logic, morality, and every other aspect of your experience.

Lovely. You want to talk about the cosmos with me. Very well. Let's begin my friend and let us talk about the universe, God and "the truth". I will give you one disclaimer. Be prepared not to have the result that you expect.

Here's my standard for truth. Unconditional love, acceptance, and freedom.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Molearner

sky123,

Basically the eightfold path outlines the WORKS necessary to achieve nirvana......which we might label as enlightenment and/or heaven. The 'from who' would be liberation from your self/ego.

The Noble Eightfold Path can be seen as a ' Prescription ' rather than ' Works ' it helps in the search to reach Spiritual Enlightenment.

' Nirvana is different from the Christian idea of heaven. Nirvana is a state of desirelessness; heaven is a state of having one's most fundamental desire (for God) fulfilled. Nirvana is a state of ultimate apathy and indifference, heaven of ultimate joy and fulfillment. Paradoxically, Buddhists regard nirvana, the state of desirelessness, as the most desirable state.'

Nirvana is not the same as Heaven and ' Enlightenment ' is not Heaven... .
Enlightenment is regarded as transforming the mind and results in reaching Nirvana.

So, since the signs that follow a believer. are listed Mark 16:(15-18) & 1 Cor. 13: (2-3) and so on.
These should be the works of Faith. Correct?
If you don't do the things listed in the Bible, Then your salvation is in question as well. Is this what is being said here?
When is the point of salvation?