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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Taoism

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  #11  
Old 08-05-2011, 03:02 PM
LadyVirgoxoxo LadyVirgoxoxo is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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I think both are beneficial.
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“I always like to look on the optimistic side of life, but I am realistic enough to know that life is a complex matter.” Walt Disney
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  #12  
Old 12-05-2011, 08:11 AM
breath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Yes but remember ritual is not the only form of practice, as stated.

Tao Te Ching (to pick the most obvious example) does in many people's opinion have breathing exercise instructions in it. Certainly there are practice-based interpretations of Lao tzu in the Tao Cannon.

In addition, the philosophy of Tao Te Ching is immensely useful as a practice, even if interpreted on the literal level as set of instructions in how to govern effectively. It dovetails beautifully with modern systems theory. John Michael Greer is currently preparing a translation of Lao Tzu with systems theory in mind (he has posted about it on the Archdruid Report) -- meanwhile if you compare Tao Te Ching with Donella Meadows' 'Thinking in Systems', say, it is very instructive. IOW the text suggests a practice, something which must actually be done, whether you interpret it as a guide for princes or for meditators.

Mostl ancient philosophy, east and west, is of that nature -- it is meant to be done, not meant to be pondered only. Stoicism and Epicureanism (which both have much in common with Taoism in their different ways) are great examples from Hellenistic Greece. The benefits of such systems are not only 'small and psychological' in my opinion.

I agree with you. Those systems to me are ritual. To me, ritual is practice internal or external which uses symbols set out by a certain system. So breathing rituals, meditation, etc. If doing these you follow instructions you're in ritual, though sure it doesn't fit into the concept of a ritual in the same sense as witches getting naked and standing around waving sticks and swords in the air.

When I originall asked about ritual, my understanding was those things that are 'done' rather than just thought about. Many 'Philosophical Taoists' just think and feel, and don't know how to put it into practice.
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  #13  
Old 12-05-2011, 12:14 PM
Prokopton
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Ah ok, I see where you're coming from. For me 'ritual' has a more restricted or literal meaning, and of course there are such literal rituals in Taoism. (Try crowning an emperor without one!)

FWIW those pure-thinky Taoists seem to be on the decrease now. I don't know whether you've found that. Because modern western philosophy is all think and no do, so that was the door through which the academic translations of Lao-Tzu et al came originally. But now there is serious scholarship into all the phases of Taoism, and a great variety of true practices available too. Westerners going into the Lungmen sect etc.

There's a great academic called David Palmer (author of Qigong Fever if you know that one) who's currently co-writing a history of the modern worldwide spread of Taoism I think. What I like about him is he is a very gripping and entertaining writer -- unlike many of his ilk. So I'll get that when he's done it and see what the story has been. I guess we've had various waves -- the discovery of the texts with Legge and Waley was one wave, the boom of people like Mantak Chia through qigong was another...
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  #14  
Old 12-05-2011, 12:33 PM
breath
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
Ah ok, I see where you're coming from. For me 'ritual' has a more restricted or literal meaning, and of course there are such literal rituals in Taoism. (Try crowning an emperor without one!)

FWIW those pure-thinky Taoists seem to be on the decrease now. I don't know whether you've found that. Because modern western philosophy is all think and no do, so that was the door through which the academic translations of Lao-Tzu et al came originally. But now there is serious scholarship into all the phases of Taoism, and a great variety of true practices available too. Westerners going into the Lungmen sect etc.

There's a great academic called David Palmer (author of Qigong Fever if you know that one) who's currently co-writing a history of the modern worldwide spread of Taoism I think. What I like about him is he is a very gripping and entertaining writer -- unlike many of his ilk. So I'll get that when he's done it and see what the story has been. I guess we've had various waves -- the discovery of the texts with Legge and Waley was one wave, the boom of people like Mantak Chia through qigong was another...

haha, I remember mantak chia. He's still going at it?

I haven't really noticed, but that's because I don't know any other taoists or people who follow taoism. I might have a look at David Palmer then, I'll remember the name anyway.
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  #15  
Old 12-05-2011, 12:56 PM
Prokopton
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
haha, I remember mantak chia. He's still going at it?

Oh totally... in fact I still use plenty of his stuff myself. I think people tend to forget that when you see people passing each other info on the 'orbit' at sites like this, it's basically down to him.

I can't post links yet, but if you type "mantak chia master yourself" into YouTube, you'll see he looks pretty darned good for 67 years of age. :)

EDIT: I'd be interested to know about your own Taoist ritual approach...
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  #16  
Old 12-05-2011, 02:56 PM
TzuJanLi
Posts: n/a
 
Greetings..

I understand ritual as a 'practice' repeated with the 'hope' of attaining an intangible result, a result not founded on observable evidence..

I understand discipline as a 'practice' repeated to cultivate a condition evidenced by observable results attained by others..

I understand that the benefits of Taoist disciplines were used by people to market their ineffective rituals, hence the deceptively broad spectrum of Taoist 'labels'..

Be well..
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  #17  
Old 12-05-2011, 03:08 PM
BlueSky BlueSky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuJanLi
Greetings..

I understand ritual as a 'practice' repeated with the 'hope' of attaining an intangible result, a result not founded on observable evidence..

I understand discipline as a 'practice' repeated to cultivate a condition evidenced by observable results attained by others..

I understand that the benefits of Taoist disciplines were used by people to market their ineffective rituals, hence the deceptively broad spectrum of Taoist 'labels'..

Be well..

That was really informative..................
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  #18  
Old 14-05-2011, 09:47 AM
breath
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prokopton
EDIT: I'd be interested to know about your own Taoist ritual approach...

The only cosmos is the inner cosmos in my eyes. Thanks to meditation I'm finding that everything is self, while amazingly breaking the entire concept of self. So while that's quite buddhist, it's shared by the idea of the taoist sage as having the universe at his heart rather than being at the heart of the universe. So if I use that understanding when picking a taoist ritual.

Let's take bowing and burning incense. Very simply ritual, but very beneficial if you're a meditator and you meditate throughout life. We engulf our minds in whatever we might need, and use the motion asif it's the universe in conversation with us. As I hold my hands together, I feel the inner mind reminding me of potentiality, the uncarved block - similarly the position of my hands is like the sword or axe position used by children without toys indicating that I, myself am a cutting in the wood, appearing to now be separate from the complete, but soon - will be soil again once I decompose (die and rot). The bow may then indicate that all life is in a state of change, that each thing also bows to all other things and all other things bow back. I may feel that I am bringing my upper dantian in line with my middle dantian, symbolising bringing heaven to earth, or if I go lower -taking the heaven energy all the way down (to places that man distains).

Once the lighting of insense is complete, and my bow is complete. Others might have seen me and thought 'pointless, what the hell is that for? he's hoping the incense is magically gonna clear all the new age super energy around the place!'. But of course, they don't know ritual as a meditator. For me I may have gone on a lesson, learnt something in that moment that could change my inner cosmos for the day and make me much better at communication, humbleness, consideration, love, compassion knowing that others have equal potential as me and as the great tao itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuJanLi
I understand ritual as a 'practice' repeated with the 'hope' of attaining an intangible result, a result not founded on observable evidence..

I understand discipline as a 'practice' repeated to cultivate a condition evidenced by observable results attained by others..

I understand that the benefits of Taoist disciplines were used by people to market their ineffective rituals, hence the deceptively broad spectrum of Taoist 'labels'..

first line: Read Above. Though clearly I'm not a Taoist except maybe Philosophical Taoist if I push it - I think I have a good grasp on the way of the ancient meditators (to distinguish from 'way of the new-age meditator' as a theraputing lifestyle purely designed to counsel and aid in recovery of sorts).

second line: In my understanding discipline is the maintaining of good virtues even when good results aren't apparent.

third line: Agreed. Though I don't think it was an act of deliberate desire to use a beautiful thing to gain position. I think human beings have an addiction to entertainment and would rather be entertained by philosophies, rituals, disciplines - rather than know the sage's position. Great Odin shows this, when hanging from Yggdrasil - starving himself until the tree of life gave up it's knowledge, which is a metaphor for taking a hard route to a spiritual understanding to make sure you don't forget what you're searching for and end up distracted by how entertaining it all is.
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  #19  
Old 14-05-2011, 10:49 AM
TzuJanLi
Posts: n/a
 
Greetings..

If i light incense, i like the fragrance.. when i bow, i acknowledge the wholeness we/us/Life represent.. generally, i establish central equilibrium in a stationary standing posture, then.. allow the mind to find its stillness.. at some point i will be inspired to move, allowing my discipline to express itself in the movements of Taiji.. after an interval of the movement's own choosing, the Taiji dissipates into pure perception, clarity.. possibly by just walking and experiencing or by sitting and observing, then.. after an interval of its own choosing, i express gratitude for the opportunity of Life and its potential.. and, i venture into Life with as much clarity as situations allow..

Be well..
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  #20  
Old 14-05-2011, 12:03 PM
Prokopton
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Sounds like good stuff to me Breath!

Me, when I use incense, I do actually use it to clear and change energy. But I don't consider that Taoist -- nor New Age either, since the guy who taught me that was not New Age himself.
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