The silliness of calling Christ an "enlightened man"

[sky]

Originally Posted by Honza

As I was saying in the first post of this thread Jesus can be known by having a relationship with Him as though He is "The Way, The Truth and The Life", Or as though He is "The Door" etc.

It is through my relationship with Jesus that I determine who or what He is. I have no idea if He was perfect when He was here on earth or if anyone has ever come close to His state of being.

However....I have tried to establish a relationship with all manner of beings/Gods in my time and Jesus is the only one who really resonates with me. There is someone there who responds. Someone strong and kind. No man could do this. Consider that Jesus is being sought by billions of people and that He has a relationship with almost all of them (if not all). Which enlightened man could do that?

People all over the world are touched by the grace of Jesus every day. No enlightened master has such a capacity for love. Only God can do that.

We dont know ' All enlightened Masters '.so it's impossible to judge them and compare them to Jesus. Most know the Story of Jesus through Scriptures, who knows who walked the Earth before him, before keeping records began.

There are and have been many lights ' Enlightened Masters ' each a little different, but each genuine and each individual making its contribution to the enlightenment of the world. We can have our favourite light but we should acknowledge all the other lights as well. We have and have had and will have many Spiritual Lights and we should embrace their brightness...

[Aknaton]

Originally Posted by sky123

We are all Children of God, even those who have never heard of a Holy Ghost.

Jesus conquered death, I thought you were male sky123...

[Honza]

Originally Posted by sky123

We dont know ' All enlightened Masters '.so it's impossible to judge them and compare them to Jesus. Most know the Story of Jesus through Scriptures, who knows who walked the Earth before him, before keeping records began.

There are and have been many lights ' Enlightened Masters ' each a little different, but each genuine and each individual making its contribution to the enlightenment of the world. We can have our favourite light but we should acknowledge all the other lights as well. We have and have had and will have many Spiritual Lights and we should embrace their brightness...

I do not doubt that many people have been and will be enlightened masters. It is ones relationship with enlightened masters that I am talking about. I could worship an enlightened master but will they hear me? Will they reciprocate my love? Will they give me grace? The answer is no. They do not have the capacity to hear me or give grace. Jesus has the capacity to hear us and give grace. Not just one or two of us but billions.

You really ought to pay attention to what my posts are saying - you keep disregarding my point.

[sky]

Originally Posted by Honza

I do not doubt that many people have been and will be enlightened masters. It is ones relationship with enlightened masters that I am talking about. I could worship an enlightened master but will they hear me? Will they reciprocate my love? Will they give me grace? The answer is no. They do not have the capacity to hear me or give grace. Jesus has the capacity to hear us and give grace. Not just one or two of us but billions.

You really ought to pay attention to what my posts are saying - you keep disregarding my point.

You don't know what capacity other Enlightened Masters have, it's speculating to say they can't give you a similar experience that you get from Jesus Jesus fulfilles your needs as he does for others and other Enlightened Masters fulfill/fulfilled the needs of others, it all about preferences rather than playing one off against another, love has no religion....

Another time, another place where Jesus wasn't heard of or known about someone else will take his place, that's the nature of most Humans, they need someone or something to hold their hand and help them along the way..

[Still_Waters]

Originally Posted by Still_Waters

Perhaps it might be wise to complete the quote "I and my Father are one and the same" with "but the Father is greater than I". There are various alternate interpretations of that statement, as you probably know.

Secondly, you have stated: "If you look at the greatest people that walked down this Earth you will still not be able to found one that even gets close to Jesus, the standard is so high that you can't even get close." The first person who immediately comes to mind is Buddha, whose teachings essentially focused on purification ( as in "Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God") while wisely remaining aloof from the dogmatic theological quibbling that divides and distracts people.

Originally Posted by ThatMan

Let's not forget that He was also man, if you read more in the NT you will find out that He gave up all His glory, the one He had before creation, and took the form of a servant.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Philippians 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men"

Buddha was indeed a great man and a very wise man, in many ways, I find myself in the situation of Buddha when he became aware of the suffering that was in the world, this very situation breaks my heart in pieces, there's so much suffering in our world....

With your last post, you have brought the dialogue to a deeper level and I would love to go further in that vein with you.

You focused on "John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

What is your understanding of that passage and the process whereby God manifests in the form of man? (This theme is common to other traditions as well, and I am very interested in hearing more from you on this subject in general and on that particular quote specifically.)

This is headed in a great direction, and I welcome further insights from you on what you have posted. Along the same lines, feel free to include any thoughts you may have about another related statement attributed to Jesus, "Before Abraham was, I AM".

[Jyotir]

Originally Posted by Honza

…an enlightened man rather than God incarnate.

What is the difference for practical purposes?

God is an enlightened man; man is an unenlightened God

Avatars like Jesus Christ, the Buddha, Krishna are manifestations of the Divine Who come to demonstrate what the possibilities are for human beings. Otherwise what they would represent is an anomaly, an aberration - that God is unapproachable and unattainable because separable and alienable which is not true since God is not only in all, but IS all, and as such all in the Creation is in the process of becoming God - consciously - including and especially in and through the individualized self-conscious human life which these figures represent NOT ONLY as a GOAL, but also (because of Who they essentially are fully manifesting) as a VEHICLE to that goal in and through THEMSELVES.

It is only because human beings feel unworthy, by allowing ignorance/ego to predominate and self-perpetuate*, that they create a divide within themselves (e.g., between themselves and God) which they then project onto their understanding of what is possible, available, and attainable as demonstrated by God’s direct representations.

Why impose a human limitation on God?
Better to attain a divine liberation in and through the human.

Is God really omnipresent or not? But importantly, in what status?
This is what the avatars demonstrate.

*why Jesus Christ had to "die for our sins", so that we could move on and further progress beyond incessantly recursive cycles of guilt and paralysis. If you are forgiven in principle that means always a new start, new work, and the implication that perfection is possible, attainable, and amazingly, inevitable per the Will of God.

~ J

[Honza]

Originally Posted by Jyotir

What is the difference for practical purposes?

God incarnate is the Messiah whereas an enlightened man is just that.

[Honza]

Originally Posted by sky123

You don't know what capacity other Enlightened Masters have, it's speculating to say they can't give you a similar experience that you get from Jesus Jesus fulfilles your needs as he does for others and other Enlightened Masters fulfill/fulfilled the needs of others, it all about preferences rather than playing one off against another, love has no religion....

Another time, another place where Jesus wasn't heard of or known about someone else will take his place, that's the nature of most Humans, they need someone or something to hold their hand and help them along the way..

Nonsense. I do know what capacity other enlightened masters have and it is not a lot. Jesus was not an enlightened master He was the Messiah. There is only one being who could ever be called the Messiah and that is Jesus. All the other enlightened people are weak compared to Him.

People crave relationships. With other people and also with God. You see peoples need as a weakness. I see it as their human nature and their requirement for being loved. Jesus offers this to them which no other spiritual being does.

[davidmartin]

an enlightened master can take you further than you can take yourself sky :)

[sky]

Originally Posted by Honza

Nonsense. I do know what capacity other enlightened masters have and it is not a lot. Jesus was not an enlightened master He was the Messiah. There is only one being who could ever be called the Messiah and that is Jesus. All the other enlightened people are weak compared to Him.

People crave relationships. With other people and also with God. You see peoples need as a weakness. I see it as their human nature and their requirement for being loved. Jesus offers this to them which no other spiritual being does.

Unless you have known all Enlightened Masters you wouldn't know their capacity
Your preference is Jesus and he works for you which is why he's your preference.

I did not say Humans seeking others is a weakness, I did mention love has no religion....