Effects of man made changes on stones.

[Crystal canuck]

Hi Fairycrystal ! I know what you are getting at, and to some degree I can relate. I would consider " natural " not to be treated, dyed or heated, and of course earth grown not lab made. I would consider polished and cut pieces to be natural as well. I mean, if we really want to stretch things, we could, but if diamond retailers consider cut diamonds still to be natural, I guess in all fairness we must consider other gemstones with the same reasoning.

That being said, I do prefer uncut crystals, I think that's about as natural as it gets, however my wife likes the spheres and obliesks and so forth.

Yes we certainly are damaging mother Earth, but if it makes you feel any better, most of the crystals we find on the market are just surprises from other mining procedures. The only real crystal mined commercially is diamonds. There are some exceptions, but in general this is the case.

I would love to see your citrine. Here is a picture of my large natural citrine. I don't have to tell you where it's from. It is exactly as you described where it`s a very light yellow more apparent in sunlight or in certain conditions.



Oh and yes, programed over treated crystal any day.

[SapphireBlue]

Originally Posted by FairyCrystal

Did you know heat-treated citrine is the citrine that has the exact properties people want citrine for? Natural citrine works entirely different and most people don't even know what that does.

I kinda did gather this but thought at best it would have weak citrine properties. Just curious how the properties differ from natural citrine? I only have 2 teeny weeny examples of what I think are natural citrine but can't be sure, as they were in a little bag of mini gems (one has a little impurity in it).

https://s22.postimg.cc/fxaho3qbl/IMAG0083.jpg

According to one blog, natural, unheated citrine contains no iron and is coloured with aluminium and lithium.

[Crystal canuck]

Beautiful Citrine ! Looks to be real from what I can tell in the picture.

Forget about what you read on the Blog, natural citrine does indeed contain iron, in fact that's what causes it's coloration. My facts come from Scientific journals and publications in print.

[SapphireBlue]

Thanks for clarifying Crystal canuck!
That is a great specimen you have there as well!!

[essvass]

Originally Posted by Sylmar

I guess it depends how you look at it. Trying to pass of something of little value to something of great value and treating them to make them look very expensive or to represent something they are not is always a big NO to me.

However there are a few examples where humanmade changes are understandable. Stabilizing Turquoise is sometimes necessary to keep the stone from falling apart or to keep it from discoloring, it just needs to be on the label. Dying Howlite blue is not a problem if it is on the label, one of my books on stone healing even included it. Trying to pass it off to customers as Turquoise is a problem. Also Zincite is also made entirely by humans (accidentally at first) most of the time but still regarded as a very powerful and helpful metaphysical crystal. Then there are the Aura Quartzes which are pretty much accepted in the metaphysical community and included in most books on healing stones. Some people love them, some hate them but they have their use.

For me personally it just depends on the intention. Stones created with the intention to mislead will never be in my collection. Some human-altered stones and crystals are fine with me I guess.

Originally Posted by FairyCrystal

I've always felt the same way, but a few years ago I became more open. I still don't have a lot, just the opalite goddess carving, 2 sunstones and a fire and ice crystal.
The most important thing for me is that I resonate with it.
And as for natural/not treated, in a way one could then also question polished crystals, which is likely more than 50% of what's out there. Spheres, tumbles, points and so on.


My Leandro smokey quartz skull is the most stunning quality I've ever seen (Brazilian, Minas Gerais). It also happens to be the most powerful skull I've ever got. Whenever I posted a photo of the group, everyone always asked about him, even if you could barely see him in the photo. So his energy was felt by everyone. Not really a surprise, given that it is a top quality smokey quartz and a Leandro. The man knows what he does, but still. I had not expected people to pick up on it from a group photo.
Also natural smokey quartz, same as the citrine it looks like clear quartz, until you put the two together or in bright daylight.
I had another smokey quartz skull, not Leandro but Walmere, also top quality (Minas Gerais, Brazil), but still not the same as the Leandro. I sold it last year, it was gone within 2 days.

I'm babbling, lol, but yeah, I'm also mostly intrigued by what we call natural crystals. Not changed in colour or quality by heat or whatever.

Hi,

I just came across this thread. I am in the process of purchasing some gems/crystals to make a crystal grid or grids and for healing. I haven't done anything with gems/crystals for many years and started looking into the natural vs fake issue since I know little about this.

I agree with what you say, but I thought sunstone was a natural stone. I remember looking it up in the past. There is imitation sunstone, I think, as with many other stones.

Also, zincite:

zinc·ite

a rare deep red or orange-yellow mineral consisting chiefly of zinc oxide, occurring typically as granular or foliated masses.

Altered/treated citrine is, of course, what is often mentioned.

On the internet, I couldn't find anything about the properties of heated citrine vs natural citrine, so I am getting an unheated crystal whatever it's worth.

Dear FairyCrystal, I'd love to know about the differences between heated citrine vs natural citrine!

I am amazed at the citrine crystal cluster in the picture. It's irresistible and unbelievable! To me, it looks greenish in color rather than yellow. I love it.

Blessings and best wishes to everyone.

[BigJohn]

Everybody has their own opinions on altered, heat treated, polished, etc. rocks and crystals so why not look at the man-made crystals?

I never have seen a person who is not attracted to Bismuth. The crystal formation is the most unique style I have ever seen. We love Bismuth for her beauty and I suspect we love other man-made and modified rocks and crystals in the same way.

Isn't it odd that on one hand we believe in Alchemy while the other hand denounces the works of the modern Alchemist.

[Crystal canuck]

You are right, everyone has a different opinion on the matter. Bismith is very cool looking, but it's not made by nature, so it's the same as a hunk of plastic made in a factory to look shiny and pretty. At least this is my view, I am not saying I am correct or right, just that's how I see it

My whole attraction to crystals is that they are natural works of art from mother nature. Every time I see a lab grown or treated specimen, even if it's something I think is very interesting, I have to pass it up. There has been times I wish the item was natural, so I could add it to my collection, but part of me thinks it's cheating or out of alignment with my collection. I have worked very hard collecting natural specimens, it would be pointless to start collecting lab grown items. It takes away from my collection if I go to show people and have to make disclaimers such as " that's actually dyed ' or " no that doesn't actually exist in nature "

After all....you can get synthetic grown diamonds now, that have the same chemical properties as an earth grown diamond. Try giving that to your wife as a wedding ring *( " but honey...it's got the same properties as a real diamond... what's the matter ? " )

Not sure if I believe in Alchemy, but I do love crystals. I believe if you are comparing a scientist who grows or dyes crystals to an alchemist, the scientist actually has accomplished something. The alchemist we know from lore, was trying to create metals like gold from metals such as lead. They always completely failed, and there has never been a record to my knowledge of a successful alchemist, it's just some kind of fairytale. Now scientists on the other hand ( modern day alchemists as you call them ) have at least been able to manufacture or grow synthetic crystals. So yes, I guess I don't believe in Alchemy, but I guess I still denounce the modern day alchemist as well.

[BigJohn]

If you look at a specimen, how do you know it is "natural"?
The only way I know is to go and dig it up yourself.

But when you dig it up, do you clean the specimen with water?

Do you remove some of the parts that look terrible?

Do you remove imperfections on crystals?

Would you ever use some of the various acids in the cleaning process?

How would you test the specimen to verify what your specimen is?


On the other hand,
how can you tell natural Citrine from heat treated Amethyst?

Examine a Chakra pendant?
The silver is probably Tibetan Silver which means the pendant does not have any of the amplification properties of silver.
The Chakra stones are glued not mounted which is a tell tale sign the Chakra stones are cheap glass.

But everybody who has a Chakra pendant, if they can feel energy, love the energy that comes of the pendant.

How can that be possible?

Some people today can implant wonderful properties into stones, crystals, jewelry, etc. that when you feel the energy coming off the item, a sensor of energy would proclaim it is the 'real' thing when in reality it whatever.

[Crystal canuck]

HI BigJohn ! You bring up some good points. I will try to address them all to the best of my knowledge and opinion.

I don't dig crystals myself, I don't have the time for such an endeavor, and the selection I can source online far surpasses the lucky breaks I might receive when searching myself. Sure I have to pay high prices sometimes, but It beats the time and energy spent otherwise IMHO.

To tell if it's natural, I do have to rely somewhat on my source to be reliable and trustworthy. I have some very good sources and they have lost large sales to me by being honest. Also the risk of finding fakes or synthetic is quite low when you are buying large specimens like I do, where you can see the rock formations. It would be more of a concern if I was collecting gem type specimens and not large display items.

I see where you are getting at with the removing parts/imperfectons and cleaning the crystals. I suppose in the strictest sense that could be considered a form of treatment. When I consider what is natural, I take into consideration what they industry considers natural. In the gem/crystal trade, it is perfectly acceptable to have an item cut or even faceted, as long as it's not heated/dyed or synthetic. I suppose I would have no problem with a part of a display being removed if it was overly ugly, but as a rule I like my specimens intact and as raw as can be. Cleaning acids are also perfectly acceptable providing they don't harm the luster or finish of the specimen, so watch the PH and so forth.

I would perform a density, luster and color test, which is usually sufficient. You can usually eliminate similar type crystals by taking into account the region where it was mined, and any secondary or trace minerals that accompany it. I would try and stay away from streak and fracture tests, for the obvious reasons, however this might be practical if you are in the field and have more than one specimen to choose from.

Citrine I think is very easy to tell from heated amethyst, at least the large specimens that I'm into. All of the heated ones I have seen have an over saturated color, that appears almost orange. Once you do enough research and view enough specimens, it becomes very easy almost second nature. Once I searched for months for a perfect red quartz cluster. After viewing hundreds if not thousands of them, I am now an expert at identifying red quartz. It's not exactly rocket science, just a lot of practice and patience.

I don't have a lot of experience with Chakra pendants, but I would sum it up to the placebo effect. Of course I could say the same with real crystals too. People say crystals do lots of things, but for me they are just some pretty rocks. I still challenge anyone who says my love for crystals is any less than the hippie girl who sets up grids and talks to ghosts and stuff through her crystals.( No offence, my wife would classify as one of these ) My love is different, the type of love people have for great works of art. Some scholars have dedicated their entire lives to the study of masterpieces, or even one artist in particular. You might ask why I am at a form like this one, which focuses on more of the metaphysical, and not another forum which might be more geology based and have a conversation based on similar interest.....however...isn't that what were doing now ?

I am enjoying your questions BigJohn you are stimulating my mind and making me think about what is important. These are just my opinions and I am not trying to say I am right or anyone is wrong. I can tell you have some good knowledge on the industry and I am glad you came along to share your insights. A solid ton of crystals and minerals ! That is very impressive ! I don't have nearly that much, but I do have close to 20 large specimens ranging from 8 LBS to over 35 LBS. I have been collecting seriously for maybe 5 years, so it's a fairly recent addiction/love. I am only 40 years old so maybe I will catch up to you one day. I don't think I have room in my 2 bedroom townhouse for 40 more specimens however ! ( LOL ! ) It's already looking like a museum in here.

[BigJohn]

Originally Posted by Crystal canuck

You are right, everyone has a different opinion on the matter. Bismith is very cool looking, but it's not made by nature, so it's the same as a hunk of plastic made in a factory to look shiny and pretty. .........
I have worked very hard collecting natural specimens, it would be pointless to start collecting lab grown items. It takes away from my collection if I go to show people and have to make disclaimers such as " that's actually dyed ' or " no that doesn't actually exist in nature "

After all....you can get synthetic grown diamonds now, that have the same chemical properties as an earth grown diamond. Try giving that to your wife as a wedding ring *( " but honey...it's got the same properties as a real diamond... what's the matter ? " )..........


Not sure if I believe in Alchemy, but I do love crystals. I believe if you are comparing a scientist who grows or dyes crystals to an alchemist, the scientist actually has accomplished something. The alchemist we know from lore, was trying to create metals like gold from metals such as lead. They always completely failed, and there has never been a record to my knowledge of a successful alchemist, it's just some kind of fairytale.........

Now scientists on the other hand ( modern day alchemists as you call them ) have at least been able to manufacture or grow synthetic crystals. So yes, I guess I don't believe in Alchemy, but I guess I still denounce the modern day alchemist as well......

Bismuth is an element..... generally does not appear by itself in nature. Bismuth is real as an Element.

Another element I have is Silicon...... Silicon also does not generally occur in nature but is a fantastic substance in of itself. Hard to believe that Silicon combined with Oxygen gives us Quartz, Amethyst, Citrine, Smokey Quartz, etc.

Scientist have made new elements. Look at all of the higher elements in an Elemental table - they were all man-made from lower elements - modern day Alchemy at its best.

Man-made gemstones such as rubies, sapphires, emeralds are so perfect it is virtually impossible to tell them from the real thing because they are made of the substance of the real thing, same refractive index, hardness test, etc.

It would be interesting to go to a metaphysical store and see how many of the items are real, touched up, heat treated , etc.

If you look at a specimen just taken out of the ground, would you buy it? Or would you wait till after it has been at least cleaned up?