A Little Dose of Reality

Originally Posted by WhiteShaman

... Really how do you know the people you have seen were uninformed. ...

To determine this takes a substantial degree of omniscience.

Originally Posted by Time

... Call it 'debunker' style all you want, but its informative, and is backed up more then any sort of AP or anything. ...

The information provided about sleep paralysis is useful, however it verges into debunker mode when others' experiences are assessed as their being uninformed, etc. It would be a much stronger presentation IMO if the restraint was had to not characterize others' experiences.

You note it 'is backed up more then any sort of AP or anything', but how do you account for one person assessing others' experiences? This is totally not backed up by anything except the personal opinion that others' experiences must be similar to their own. This is not necessarily the case. This seems to be selectively choosing what is valid or not even though the claim that others haven't had valid AP experineces is actually no more supported than the claim that they have.

I stand by my remarks.

Originally Posted by mattie

You are discrediting others assessment that they have APed by saying ,'
I have seen many uninformed people who think or claim that they are having an OBE or Astral Projecting themselves ...' To discredit is to cause an idea, conclusion, or piece of evidence to seem unreliable. To say they are misinterpreting their own experience is discrediting their account.

There is a big difference between the measured statement of saying that a situation applies to you & may apply to others vs making a categorical statement that seems to applies to all APing & OBEs.

Depending of course on how you choose to take the meaning of what I said. If you want to be offended and take it as some kind of discrediting statement, then you will see that in the post. However discrediting wasn't the intent, and the only way it can be construed that way is if someone chooses to see it as such.

Originally Posted by mattie

Another attempt to discredit by characterizing replies 'knee-jerking' that only reinforces my above & prior statement.

I said that in a later post after what IMHO seemed like a knee-jerk attitude. The continued arguing over this matter reinforces to me, the validity of that statement.

If someone chooses to take what I said offensively after I clarified my intent and statements, (When there wasn't a need to in the first place.) then yes that is a knee-jerk reaction and I stand firmly behind my statements.

However I do wish to thank you and the others have posted (Even if just to makes claims about my intentions.) for giving this thread extra views and bumping it so more people will take notice.

Originally Posted by whiteshaman

... Really how do you know the people you have seen were uninformed.

Originally Posted by mattie

To determine this takes a substantial degree of omniscience.

I really hate having to re-quote myself, but it seems I must:

Originally Posted by Scibat

I didn't know that they were or weren't. I didn't say "All of you are uninformed", nor did I imply such. I have seen many posts where sleep paralysis or hypnagogic hallucinations seemed like the culprit was mentioned by another member and the OP replied with something to the effect, "I never heard of that."

If you read the above you can clearly see that I did clarify that statement, and will reiterate.

There are misinformed people on this forum, who sometimes experience something they think is real and because they have never heard of a correlating scientific or medical phenomena that might explain their experience, they can and do draw an erroneous conclusion from the experience -- Giving more information to those people was the sole intention of my post.

One really has to wonder what the real motivation is to make such an issue out of such a minor (And IMHO) helpful post.

Originally Posted by Scibat

There are misinformed people on this forum, and sometimesthey experience something they think is real and because they have never heard of a correlating scientific or medical phenomena that might explain their experience, they can and do draw an erroneous conclusion from the experience -- Giving more information to those people was the sole intention of my post.

Then you are discrediting these "misinformed" people. Jeez, quit with the word games. You don't need to have a belief system that goes beyond science but at least own what you write. Yea, one *might* have a serious condition behind what they're experiencing. That says nothing about the nature of what they're experiencing, just how it manifests in the physical.

Words and how they are said can and do get misconstrued, I know myself that I have sometimes thought what I wrote sounded okay and boom it didn't seem that way to some soooo...., forgiving and moving on helped me when this has happened. I am not stating blame I am just being observant...

[Silver]

Originally Posted by Just One

Then you are discrediting these "misinformed" people. Jeez, quit with the word games. You don't need to have a belief system that goes beyond science but at least own what you write. Yea, one *might* have a serious condition behind what they're experiencing. That says nothing about the nature of what they're experiencing, just how it manifests in the physical.

I think you're waay overthinking this and for whatever reason you're rather defensive about the whole thing when the intent was a warning not to believe something is spiritual or ethereal or whatever as opposed to there being a medical reason. Iow, you're taking just as hard a line on your side as you accuse Scibat of being on his. I think everyone should try to give a little bit...give in the sense of most of us aren't rhodes scholars and aren't going to be so precise in our wording, give in the sense of differing personalities, etc., etc. Otay?

^ You can package his intent how you like. When I essentially read "Some people are wrong... oh, but I'm not discrediting them!" my debate-wheels start turning. No emotional investment in this, not over thinking... in fact I hope this helps the 2% of people who practice AP and really do have a serious condition. However, the "this or that, but not both" mentality is one I oppose and will argue against on a rainy day.

Originally Posted by Just One

Then you are discrediting these "misinformed" people. Jeez, quit with the word games. You don't need to have a belief system that goes beyond science but at least own what you write. Yea, one *might* have a serious condition behind what they're experiencing. That says nothing about the nature of what they're experiencing, just how it manifests in the physical.

I am not the one playing word games, others did -- Grasping onto the word misinformed and making a mountain out of a molehill with it. It fact it is a such a minor thing that I was genuinely surprised at the stir and reactions it caused in a select few.

I think l see the causes for this. It is caused by two erroneous assumptions:

1. The assumption I do not believe in AP or OBE's. (I never said nor implied this anywhere.).
2. The apparent belief that by presenting information that might be helpful to those who think they are APing or having an OBE but are in fact having episodes of the phenomena mention, I am somehow discrediting them or trying to debunk APs (Which is again, not the case).

Having suffered personally from said phenomena I know what it looks and feels like. I know how easily it could be believed to be a real event, and I wished to help people who might otherwise be misinformed (Or uninformed) about what is going on with them become more informed.

Perhaps the word uninformed would have been a better choice, but by the reactions here I feel the outcome would have been much the same.

Originally Posted by Just One

^ You can package his intent how you like. When I essentially read "Some people are wrong... oh, but I'm not discrediting them!" my debate-wheels start turning. No emotional investment in this, not over thinking... in fact I hope this helps the 2% of people who practice AP and really do have a serious condition. However, the "this or that, but not both" mentality is one I oppose and will argue against on a rainy day.

She is no more "packaging" my intent than you and the others here are who have made this trifling thing into an issue are, by reading more into my initial post than what I said. I have stated my intent a few times, you can choose to believe it or not -- But I absolutely will not back down, so if you want to argue, I'm game -- But will tell you how its going to end, with the thread getting locked.

[Kaere]

Reminder to everyone please.

Respect: Please respect other member’s and their beliefs, opinions, and views at all times. Abuse and abusive posts (of any nature) will not be tolerated. Breaches of this ruling will result in posts being removed, warnings and if continued, DA. Mocking, and belittling other members also counts as disrespect.

Personal Affairs: This includes disputes from other forums, private arguments from your personal life and disliking other members, these should not be brought into the forum, everyone has an ‘ignore this member’ function which can be used, this behaviour will result in warnings and possible DA.


There is no reason for the sarcasm or aggression that's being shown here. Can we keep the discussion restricted to remarks about AP and not about other members, thank you.