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  #101  
Old 02-08-2019, 01:52 PM
Ghost_Rider_1970 Ghost_Rider_1970 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utopiandreamchild
I believe when we die that's the end of us. However I could be wrong.

I’m pretty much with you on this one.

As I believe once my own unique consciousness is gone, I as the universe will simply incarnate (rather than reincarnate) and have another unique experience through someone else
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I am not an individual having a universal experience, but the universe having an individual experience. Where consciousness is the universe experiencing itself through each of us.


Destiny is not the path given to us - but the path we choose for ourselves.

Current resources:
Tom Campbell: Ultimate Reality www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhv-XCff4_I


Currently reading:
Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are: Alan Watts
A Brief History of Time: Stephen Hawking
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  #102  
Old 02-08-2019, 04:03 PM
EdmundJohnstone EdmundJohnstone is offline
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Do you remember how it was before being conceived? You are the product of a sperm and and ovulum creating that egg in your mum's tummy.

What happened to the ice that just melted? What happened to the apple that someone just ate? What happened to the insect that someone stepped on?

The hard part about studying things from a scientific fashion is that we need to create our hypotheses based upon the best available evidence. So here are some things that we know -

If your brain stops functioning, any outward sign of cognition also stops functioning.
People happen to dream. These dreams can occur in ridiculously short time spans, regardless of how long it subjectively feels that you have been dreaming.
When someone’s brain changes, their personality also seems to change. This also can include split-brain patients who can suddenly have two distinct personalities that act in very different ways.

Our “sense of self” (what is often referred to as a soul or a spirit) is the by-product of biochemical processes in our brains. When our brains die (when our bodies die), this biochemical process ceases, and our awareness collapses and disappears, never to return—on earth or anywhere else, just as a non-functional phone



The 4-year long “AWARE” study found absolutely zero proof of out-of-body experiences
Memories are not perfect and do change with time. This suggests that if someone is to have some vague experience that seems like an Near Death Experience (NDE), it is likely that memory will become more elaborate over time and that each retelling of the memory will make the NDE experiencer more sure that it actually occurred, even if there was little to no evidence of it to begin with.
Yes, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. That means that the energy in your body will be used after you die by various decomposers in order to keep them alive. My body and everything that makes me me will disintegrates when I die. At one point, matter what used to be me will turn into something else. Perhaps food for worms? So, my energy content remains in the universe while I, the person that I am, stop existing. What happened to the Energy from the Apple someone ate? It got transferred. Same for consciousness, where does it go after death? Nowhere as where does the ice go after it melts?
I am not trying to say that there is no afterlife, but I will say that when we examine all available evidence, we don’t have anything that even mildly points to the existence of an afterlife. I will also say that the evidence we have points to the idea that consciousness originates as a function of the brain and that the idea of cartesian dualism shows no evidence of being correct. This is important because for there to be an afterlife, we would need to be more than our meat, and therefore there would be some entity inhabiting our brains, instead of us simply being our brains. This does not mean there is proof against an afterlife, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But there’s also no proof of unicorns, pixies, dragons, or the Loch Ness Monster, Demons or God or any made-up stories.

I have never had an NDE. I have, however, had seizures. I have felt my brain stop working properly. I have felt the frustration of not being able to think it through and have had the horrible sensation of knowing that I could not properly get my thoughts out. These have been, I will not lie, some of the worst experiences in my life and I wish I could forget them. I wish I had a perfect “second” brain that was not impacted by the problems that went after my meat brain, but I don’t see any evidence of that. I have had my personality change due to medication to stop me from having further seizures. When I was in those states, every one of my actions and feelings felt warranted. As I switched medications, I felt myself wanting to scream that the feelings I had experienced previously had been my real feelings, and not simply an effect of the seizure medication.

As far as I can tell, we are our brains. Occam’s Razor would point to the idea that we should accept the scientific theory that demands the fewest new unfounded suppositions. To state that NDEs are a function of our brain demands nothing new to be thrown into the equation. Brains are not perfect. Memories are not perfect. To state that NDEs are due to a trip to some other plane of existence demands that we accept that humans have some sort of mirror brain which can leave our body; that our brain’s “second brain” has the capacity to store memory, even though we know that if certain areas of our brains are destroyed, the memories stored in those parts of the brain seem to be destroyed with them - so I guess no need to feel sad when Grandma has Alzheimer’s, because she’s got the memory back-up in her soul; that there is another plane of reality that exists - along with the structures that we would associate with a place where people can live; and that this “other brain” of ours has the capacity of moving between dimensions. These are not minor things to add to the world. They aren’t incidental. These are huge and vast leaps, and they are competing against “sometimes brains get messed up and think something happened when it didn’t really happen.”

I would love it if an afterlife existed. From a selfish perspective, I don’t really like thinking about the world without me. From a loss perspective, I have lost loved ones, my mentor in college died my junior year, my father’s mentor died when I was 8 and he was closer to me than any grandparent I ever had - all of whom are now gone. My grandmother went my entire life with Parkinson’s, slowly consuming her. I would love to see these people again. I would love to be able to meet the perfect version of my grandmother that my mom tells me about, because I never knew that woman. I might outlive my loved ones, my loved ones might outlive me - those ideas both horrify me. The next major death I will probably experience is that of our tiny dog who at best has 8–10 more years to him. I love my dog. I don’t want to imagine how it’s going to feel when he dies. I know that all I’m going to want is to see him again.

The afterlife is a tantalizing concept, the idea that we get more life, that those we love are still okay. But us wanting it to be real doesn’t make it real, no matter how much we wish it did. All writings with regards to the "after life" are written by living people and are no more than speculations and wishful thinking or made-up stories/hallucinations. Yet nobody came back from the dead to tell us how exactly it is or if there is something after death for the individual.

Until then it's more like



rather than

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  #103  
Old 03-08-2019, 05:53 AM
jimmymc25 jimmymc25 is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 36
 
Nothing you wrote is true Edmund....it's all the work of narrow minded egotists.
Try doing some spiritual work yourself and take it for checking instead of being fooled by the stuff you wrote about.

I can't prove anything to you....neither can they. It's all up to you. As of now you've chosen their words....maybe that's your path for now....so be it.

Could be it's not your time to know Truth and there's nothing wrong with that.
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  #104  
Old 03-08-2019, 09:09 AM
PureEvil760
Posts: n/a
 
Edmund. First of all, I'm curious as to why an atheist is on this forum? To me atheism is the same as christianity, two sides of the same coin, one says yes and one says no but the coin itself is b-s. They both argue strongly over their beliefs, which have not been proven or disproven.

I've seen too much evidence personally that makes the existence of the afterlife undoubtable. The evidence is inside yourself, which can then be seen on the outside, instant healing for example. So if you search for things only on the outside you'll never find what you're looking for because its not there.

By comparison, we're in hell now.. like how you said it would be nice to believe we had 'more life' but think about existing as yourself for eternity, would you really want that? Obviously not, reality is not what we are. And yes the people that think they go to a place with fluffy clouds are utterly wrong by the mere fact that you would eventually go insane existing as what you think you are now for eternity.

That's how you find the truth, by comparing everything with eternity. If it cannot exist for eternity than it does not exist at all in a spiritual sense.

The problem with trying to describe things like this is its too simple like describing colors to a blind person, if they've never seen it themselves its very hard to understand.
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  #105  
Old 03-08-2019, 09:35 AM
Ghost_Rider_1970 Ghost_Rider_1970 is offline
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Location: Manchester, UK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone
Do you remember how it was before being conceived? You are the product of a sperm and and ovulum creating that egg in your mum's tummy.

What happened to the ice that just melted? What happened to the apple that someone just ate? What happened to the insect that someone stepped on?

The hard part about studying things from a scientific fashion is that we need to create our hypotheses based upon the best available evidence. So here are some things that we know -

If your brain stops functioning, any outward sign of cognition also stops functioning.
People happen to dream. These dreams can occur in ridiculously short time spans, regardless of how long it subjectively feels that you have been dreaming.
When someone’s brain changes, their personality also seems to change. This also can include split-brain patients who can suddenly have two distinct personalities that act in very different ways.

Our “sense of self” (what is often referred to as a soul or a spirit) is the by-product of biochemical processes in our brains. When our brains die (when our bodies die), this biochemical process ceases, and our awareness collapses and disappears, never to return—on earth or anywhere else, just as a non-functional phone



The 4-year long “AWARE” study found absolutely zero proof of out-of-body experiences
Memories are not perfect and do change with time. This suggests that if someone is to have some vague experience that seems like an Near Death Experience (NDE), it is likely that memory will become more elaborate over time and that each retelling of the memory will make the NDE experiencer more sure that it actually occurred, even if there was little to no evidence of it to begin with.
Yes, energy can neither be created nor destroyed. That means that the energy in your body will be used after you die by various decomposers in order to keep them alive. My body and everything that makes me me will disintegrates when I die. At one point, matter what used to be me will turn into something else. Perhaps food for worms? So, my energy content remains in the universe while I, the person that I am, stop existing. What happened to the Energy from the Apple someone ate? It got transferred. Same for consciousness, where does it go after death? Nowhere as where does the ice go after it melts?
I am not trying to say that there is no afterlife, but I will say that when we examine all available evidence, we don’t have anything that even mildly points to the existence of an afterlife. I will also say that the evidence we have points to the idea that consciousness originates as a function of the brain and that the idea of cartesian dualism shows no evidence of being correct. This is important because for there to be an afterlife, we would need to be more than our meat, and therefore there would be some entity inhabiting our brains, instead of us simply being our brains. This does not mean there is proof against an afterlife, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. But there’s also no proof of unicorns, pixies, dragons, or the Loch Ness Monster, Demons or God or any made-up stories.

I have never had an NDE. I have, however, had seizures. I have felt my brain stop working properly. I have felt the frustration of not being able to think it through and have had the horrible sensation of knowing that I could not properly get my thoughts out. These have been, I will not lie, some of the worst experiences in my life and I wish I could forget them. I wish I had a perfect “second” brain that was not impacted by the problems that went after my meat brain, but I don’t see any evidence of that. I have had my personality change due to medication to stop me from having further seizures. When I was in those states, every one of my actions and feelings felt warranted. As I switched medications, I felt myself wanting to scream that the feelings I had experienced previously had been my real feelings, and not simply an effect of the seizure medication.

As far as I can tell, we are our brains. Occam’s Razor would point to the idea that we should accept the scientific theory that demands the fewest new unfounded suppositions. To state that NDEs are a function of our brain demands nothing new to be thrown into the equation. Brains are not perfect. Memories are not perfect. To state that NDEs are due to a trip to some other plane of existence demands that we accept that humans have some sort of mirror brain which can leave our body; that our brain’s “second brain” has the capacity to store memory, even though we know that if certain areas of our brains are destroyed, the memories stored in those parts of the brain seem to be destroyed with them - so I guess no need to feel sad when Grandma has Alzheimer’s, because she’s got the memory back-up in her soul; that there is another plane of reality that exists - along with the structures that we would associate with a place where people can live; and that this “other brain” of ours has the capacity of moving between dimensions. These are not minor things to add to the world. They aren’t incidental. These are huge and vast leaps, and they are competing against “sometimes brains get messed up and think something happened when it didn’t really happen.”

I would love it if an afterlife existed. From a selfish perspective, I don’t really like thinking about the world without me. From a loss perspective, I have lost loved ones, my mentor in college died my junior year, my father’s mentor died when I was 8 and he was closer to me than any grandparent I ever had - all of whom are now gone. My grandmother went my entire life with Parkinson’s, slowly consuming her. I would love to see these people again. I would love to be able to meet the perfect version of my grandmother that my mom tells me about, because I never knew that woman. I might outlive my loved ones, my loved ones might outlive me - those ideas both horrify me. The next major death I will probably experience is that of our tiny dog who at best has 8–10 more years to him. I love my dog. I don’t want to imagine how it’s going to feel when he dies. I know that all I’m going to want is to see him again.

The afterlife is a tantalizing concept, the idea that we get more life, that those we love are still okay. But us wanting it to be real doesn’t make it real, no matter how much we wish it did. All writings with regards to the "after life" are written by living people and are no more than speculations and wishful thinking or made-up stories/hallucinations. Yet nobody came back from the dead to tell us how exactly it is or if there is something after death for the individual.

Until then it's more like



rather than


Oh wow!

What a brilliant, brilliant post! So beautifully written with incredible kindness, consideration, and understanding.

With me being on the most incredible spiritual journey of self-discovery I completely agree. Where the bit I've highlighted in bold for me really does capture the very essence of us being this universe, and will continue to be so after we die. Albeit in a different form, and without any conscious awareness.

When we come to see this beyond any spiritual concepts; belief systems; or ego, it makes life so beautiful. As we truly see everything around us so clearly; who we are; who everyone and everything is - without illusion.

It then allows us to realise that not only is destiny a path we chose for ourselves, but we are truly free to enjoy our life. More than just knowing - but feeling - our very existence outside of the confinements of us being so much more than a soul in a body. As each of us is the whole universe, and will continue to be so after we die.

To me this is what spirituality is, and for us to simply 'be'.

Phenomenal post EdmundJohnstone
__________________

I am not an individual having a universal experience, but the universe having an individual experience. Where consciousness is the universe experiencing itself through each of us.


Destiny is not the path given to us - but the path we choose for ourselves.

Current resources:
Tom Campbell: Ultimate Reality www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhv-XCff4_I


Currently reading:
Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are: Alan Watts
A Brief History of Time: Stephen Hawking
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  #106  
Old 03-08-2019, 09:53 AM
EdmundJohnstone EdmundJohnstone is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 156
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmymc25
Nothing you wrote is true Edmund....it's all the work of narrow minded egotists.
Try doing some spiritual work yourself and take it for checking instead of being fooled by the stuff you wrote about.

I can't prove anything to you....neither can they. It's all up to you. As of now you've chosen their words....maybe that's your path for now....so be it.

Could be it's not your time to know Truth and there's nothing wrong with that.
Thank you for your message.
Don't want to be mean, but how do you know what is true and what is not (that what I wrote is not true)?

What do you mean it's not my time to know Truth?
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  #107  
Old 03-08-2019, 10:05 AM
EdmundJohnstone EdmundJohnstone is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 156
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PureEvil760
Edmund. First of all, I'm curious as to why an atheist is on this forum? To me atheism is the same as christianity, two sides of the same coin, one says yes and one says no but the coin itself is b-s. They both argue strongly over their beliefs, which have not been proven or disproven.

I've seen too much evidence personally that makes the existence of the afterlife undoubtable. The evidence is inside yourself, which can then be seen on the outside, instant healing for example. So if you search for things only on the outside you'll never find what you're looking for because its not there.

By comparison, we're in hell now.. like how you said it would be nice to believe we had 'more life' but think about existing as yourself for eternity, would you really want that? Obviously not, reality is not what we are. And yes the people that think they go to a place with fluffy clouds are utterly wrong by the mere fact that you would eventually go insane existing as what you think you are now for eternity.

That's how you find the truth, by comparing everything with eternity. If it cannot exist for eternity than it does not exist at all in a spiritual sense.

The problem with trying to describe things like this is its too simple like describing colors to a blind person, if they've never seen it themselves its very hard to understand.

Hi there.Cheers for the answer

To answer your curiosity, I am here just to see other's perspective/opinion. I wouldn't deny the creator as every creation has a creator.

Now if someone completely embraces Evolution, our God for the human race would be what? Hominini? What about for Hominini? Earthly living beings, and for them would be the marine living beings, and for them bacteria.....For the Universe the Creator might be a Giant amoeba defecating it (an example), or the Big-Bang.As for us as individuals if we identify God as our Creator we can say that even our parents are our Gods since they created us, and that our bodies are the God of our own urine, since they created it (and urine is our creation).It's all about perception. As for "after life" an atheist would say it will be a transfer/recycle of energy to another living being as the body is decomposed and that is the end for the individual as he/she/it turned into nothingness as his/her/its brain died so unconsciousness/unaware (since that is a byproduct of brain activity, like chemical and electrical reactions, as all memories, thoughts and feelings are stored within the brain and when it dies that's the end of the individual and hence loss of everything associated to his/her/its memories, experiences, feelings and thoughts)

Most atheists would prefer to stop existing after death rather than living for an eternity on a fluffy cloud, or being bored to live for an eternity and that this was their only life for them, so what would happen to them according to the truth? Also what would happen to the believer in spiritual afterlife after death, according to the truth? Will their (believers) experience after death be different from the atheists? Because in the atheists opinion all death are the same leading to nothingness (there is no afterlife for a dead computer (brain) ) - as Professor Stephen Hawking said. People like him would say that mediums are charlatans cold readers, stalking, psychological exploiting, inventing fairy tales and looking to squeeze money out of people, and that the other persons who had "spiritual experiences" were just hallucinating, wishful thinking


So, who holds the truth? The truth is relative anyway, an atheist say he/she is right while a believer would say the same. Do bacteria or virus also have a "soul"? I thought that is just fantasy mythology as old as humanity as they couldn't explain phenomena and associating different phenomena with Gods (storm, beauty, love, war, etc). How would anyone (including an atheist) disprove that pink horses are not real? They can't, right? It's just imagination/hallucination, the same belief as Santa Claus. Now if I invent something in my mind and believe it will be just wishful thinking and you can't disprove it. Same for spiritual people, where is the evidence for that? On the other hand Science can explain things better than spirituality can, as science can provide evidence whereas spirituality can't. I was referring to the afterlife of the "soul", and not the afterlife such as energy being transferred to another living being


I am open to other perspectives/points of view, I am not here to argue/have an argument. I get what you mean by your last paragraph, but how do they know it wasn't their brain playing tricks as striving for survival due to anoxia or induced by thoughts? It is probably that it will be like before being born after death, nobody came back from biological death to tell us how it was "up there". It's a fact that there is no accepted evidence for spirit, merely just beliefs that can't be disproved, well because they are imagination/fantasy (that's what most of medics and scientists would tell).

Last edited by EdmundJohnstone : 03-08-2019 at 12:22 PM.
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  #108  
Old 03-08-2019, 12:23 PM
neil neil is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: ♡AUSTRALIA♡
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone
Quote:
Same for spiritual people, where is the evidence for that
?

I have my evidence, & the very many phenomenal spiritual experiences that I have witnessed proves it all to me, "without doubt".

If you need proof you will have to discover it for yourself.

What the world needs, is another Jesus type character. To show people spiritual evidence, through miracle type phenomenal feats.

Science has no clue how the brain works, they think all consciousness, thinking & reasoning resides in the brain, however they have no understanding that the brain is non sentient, non aware & does not hold an identity.

It all resides within Soul'self, & Soul'self is enmeshed within the flesh & only connected to the flesh.

The sentience of Soul'self thinks & reasons, & in a flash via the silver cord, the brain receives & processes the thinking & reasoning, & transforms the thinking & reasoning into information that the body can opperate of.

& information comes to the brain from the flesh, of which the brain transforms into content, that is delivered to the Soul'self & of which we the Soul'self responds to with thinking & reasoning, of which is then delivered to the brain & on it goes in split seconds moment by moment back & forth.

Anyway you said that you are open to other people's perspectives & views, so above is only a small part of it all, as I am led to understand it, & as i have witnessed.

Regards & SMILES from myself.
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  #109  
Old 03-08-2019, 04:44 PM
EdmundJohnstone EdmundJohnstone is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 156
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil
I have my evidence, & the very many phenomenal spiritual experiences that I have witnessed proves it all to me, "without doubt".

If you need proof you will have to discover it for yourself.

What the world needs, is another Jesus type character. To show people spiritual evidence, through miracle type phenomenal feats.

Science has no clue how the brain works, they think all consciousness, thinking & reasoning resides in the brain, however they have no understanding that the brain is non sentient, non aware & does not hold an identity.

It all resides within Soul'self, & Soul'self is enmeshed within the flesh & only connected to the flesh.

The sentience of Soul'self thinks & reasons, & in a flash via the silver cord, the brain receives & processes the thinking & reasoning, & transforms the thinking & reasoning into information that the body can opperate of.

& information comes to the brain from the flesh, of which the brain transforms into content, that is delivered to the Soul'self & of which we the Soul'self responds to with thinking & reasoning, of which is then delivered to the brain & on it goes in split seconds moment by moment back & forth.

Anyway you said that you are open to other people's perspectives & views, so above is only a small part of it all, as I am led to understand it, & as i have witnessed.

Regards & SMILES from myself.
Hello. Cheers for your message, your insights and opinions are appreciated.
I, myself have not experienced an NDE, but I heard that some people didn't experience anything, it was just a blank period of being unaware (nothingness), like they went for a nap without dreaming suggesting death would be the same, while some others had those fantasy-like states, which could be explained as anoxia of the brain fighting for survival alongside DMT.
What is your take on that?

Last edited by EdmundJohnstone : 03-08-2019 at 06:03 PM.
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  #110  
Old 03-08-2019, 08:44 PM
iamthat iamthat is offline
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Location: Golden Bay, New Zealand
Posts: 3,580
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone
Most atheists would prefer to stop existing after death rather than living for an eternity on a fluffy cloud, or being bored to live for an eternity and that this was their only life for them, so what would happen to them according to the truth? Also what would happen to the believer in spiritual afterlife after death, according to the truth? Will their (believers) experience after death be different from the atheists? Because in the atheists opinion all death are the same leading to nothingness (there is no afterlife for a dead computer (brain) ) - as Professor Stephen Hawking said. People like him would say that mediums are charlatans cold readers, stalking, psychological exploiting, inventing fairy tales and looking to squeeze money out of people, and that the other persons who had "spiritual experiences" were just hallucinating, wishful thinking

Stephen Hawking may have had a brilliant mind in some respects, but when it comes to the bigger questions of life and death he was as ignorant as most other people. So I would not consider him as an authority on the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdmundJohnstone
I am open to other perspectives/points of view, I am not here to argue/have an argument. I get what you mean by your last paragraph, but how do they know it wasn't their brain playing tricks as striving for survival due to anoxia or induced by thoughts? It is probably that it will be like before being born after death, nobody came back from biological death to tell us how it was "up there". It's a fact that there is no accepted evidence for spirit, merely just beliefs that can't be disproved, well because they are imagination/fantasy (that's what most of medics and scientists would tell).

There is no "accepted evidence" for spirit because we are dealing with subjective knowledge, whereas materialist scientists want some kind of objective proof which can be measured and quantified. As long as they look outwards then they are searching in the wrong place. These scientists will get their proof if they go within and explore their own consciousness. But I suspect they are not ready to do so.

Peace.
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