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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Lifestyle > Vegetarian & Vegan

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  #11  
Old 10-11-2018, 07:10 PM
Debrah Debrah is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
This is the forum for talking about veg/vegan nutrition. That's what I want to talk about.


Are you interested in discussing it because you are thinking of moving in that direction and just want to make sure you dot all the i's and cross all the t's in a bid to (at least) maintain your current level of health? Are there questions that you have regarding where to get certain nutrients? Or is this an effort to educate those who are vegan but eat terrible diets nonetheless? Because if your reason is any of those, I think it would be interesting to discuss the topic.

I just happen to be the sort of person who likes to understand motives as I walk into a conversation. Particularly as my experience in discussing nutrition with people who eat animals, is that the discussion often gets a little testy. But seeing as how my curiosity has apparently offended you and Inavalan, maybe it's best if I just back out of this one.
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  #12  
Old 11-11-2018, 05:47 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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[quote=Debrah]Well, I could be persistent and say to you, something like, 'Still not getting to the heart of it. Why?', but I suppose it doesn't really matter does it?

What's more interesting perhaps is why you, a meat eater, seem to recognize that a WFPB diet is healthy but still eat animals. Kind of contradictory outlook.[quote]


I only look at nutrition, and complete nutrition is possible for omnivores, vegetatians and vegans (Omnivorous diets are, however, excluded from this thread's context except as an aside).


Quote:
'...plant-powered athletes like Kendrick Farris, Team USA’s only male weightlifter at the Rio Olympics.

Let’s also not forget the likes of Patrick Baboumian, a German powerlifter who was not only named “Germany’s Strongest Man” in 2011 but has also broken multiple powerlifting records.

Not to mention, Venus Williams has continued to play tennis like a complete and total boss while slamming dairy milk in a campaign alongside DJ Khaled, all while maintaining a vegan diet...

...Take a look at Hulda B. Waage, an Icelandic powerlifter, who not only recently went home with a shiny new championship trophy, but also broke a new national record. And yeah, she’s vegan.'

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/news/i...tional-record/




Yes, people who optimise physical performance eat the proper nutrients for that goal, and that can be accomplished in many different ways including veganism.



The athletic narrative about food is calories, macronutrients and micronutrients, regardless of their individual dietary lifestyles. We math.


Girl power is awesome! I will give that link a closer look.


Dr Mike Isratel is a world leader in sports nutrition and coaching systems specialising in muscle hypertrophy and strength sports. He is an excellent speaker (if not a tad profane), and here is his commentary on elite performance veganism https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R__SqhrhAYU.

(Keep in mind this narrative on nutrition is specific to optimising muscle growth/strength performance and is not focused on 'health' and/or longevity)
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  #13  
Old 11-11-2018, 06:17 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Debrah
Are you interested in discussing it because you are thinking of moving in that direction and just want to make sure you dot all the i's and cross all the t's in a bid to (at least) maintain your current level of health? Are there questions that you have regarding where to get certain nutrients? Or is this an effort to educate those who are vegan but eat terrible diets nonetheless? Because if your reason is any of those, I think it would be interesting to discuss the topic.


I would certainly consider vegetarianism because of ethical reasons associated with cruel farming practices, and also, the amount of meat I have to eat as a primary protein source is pretty extreme and doesn't seem to me to be well balanced, though my veg intake is quite high at around 8 cups a day + a couple cups of fruit as well.


I'm reasonable well informed about the nutrient profile of different foods, and I have the charts I can reference, so it won't be be a problem for me to do the math and design a way of eating without meat.


The motive of this thread was stated clearly in the op as the wish to enhance the happiness and well-being through mutual sharing of information.


Quote:
I just happen to be the sort of person who likes to understand motives as I walk into a conversation. Particularly as my experience in discussing nutrition with people who eat animals, is that the discussion often gets a little testy. But seeing as how my curiosity has apparently offended you and Inavalan, maybe it's best if I just back out of this one.




Oh I'm not offended. I just assert my right to engage in nutritional discussions which exclude omnivorous diets. I don't deride veganism when I point out the deficiencies of that way of eating. I merely point out deficiencies and suggest possible ways they might be mitigated, as I would with any dietary practice. I don't deride any way of eating, and I respect people's ethical standards and encourage their convictions, but I deride the 'typical Western diet' as harmful, and advocate proper nutrition from whole/unprocessed food. In the mix, I pick up things other people say and be inspired to read up on that as well.


I aim to create the conditions which are most conducive to enhancing happiness and well-being.
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  #14  
Old 11-11-2018, 08:52 AM
Altair Altair is offline
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I'm not a powerlifter so I won't comment on that, but I'm at the gym 4x a week. I went from 68 kg to 76 kg but I got no more mass around my belly than before. My legs in particular have gotten heavier. I don't take any supplements for muscle growth either. I make sure to eat plenty protein 3x a day, but I am vegetarian, I eat dairy and eggs, chickpeas, nuts as snack, and a lot of bean variety throughout the week..

I became a vegetarian in 2008.. I started going to the gym a year ago. I don't have any 'end' goals and I don't look up to other people. I just like working on my body and train all the muscles, and see where it brings me. My abdomen and legs have become very muscular. I did taekwondo for years and might take it up again at some point and see how powerful I can kick now.. should be fun!

I do yoga every day.. I'm lean as fock..
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  #15  
Old 11-11-2018, 09:59 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
I'm not a powerlifter so I won't comment on that, but I'm at the gym 4x a week. I went from 68 kg to 76 kg but I got no more mass around my belly than before. My legs in particular have gotten heavier. I don't take any supplements for muscle growth either. I make sure to eat plenty protein 3x a day, but I am vegetarian, I eat dairy and eggs, chickpeas, nuts as snack, and a lot of bean variety throughout the week..


In the first year of training the gains are fast (particularly for younger people). The newbie gains continue for the second year as well and rapid rate of gainz tapers off gradually during the third and fourth years, so as you keep training for the next couple of years, you gonna get very muscular. Your nutrition sounds like it's on point, too - clean wholefood eating - and as a rule of thumb between 0.8 and 1.0 g of protein per pound of lean body weight (total weight - fat weight) is about as much as you'd need. You sound like you are pretty lean, and if you have clearly visible 6-pack abs you are probably around about 10-15% body fat as a pretty rough estimate. If you find your gainz slow down or stop at any time you just have to eat more. Most training failures are due to not eating enough (and/or insufficient protein).


Quote:
I became a vegetarian in 2008.. I started going to the gym a year ago. I don't have any 'end' goals and I don't look up to other people. I just like working on my body and train all the muscles, and see where it brings me.


It's certainly going to bring you someplace good, right?


Quote:
My abdomen and legs have become very muscular. I did taekwondo for years and might take it up again at some point and see how powerful I can kick now.. should be fun!

I do yoga every day.. I'm lean as fock..




Sounds like you do everything really well. I think that will produce excellent results
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  #16  
Old 11-11-2018, 10:12 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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And I should mention, Altair, for excellent, safe, training information check out Athlean-x on you tube. Jeff is best.
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  #17  
Old 11-11-2018, 06:34 PM
Altair Altair is offline
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Thanks for the info Gem.
You do only powerlifting or a mix..?
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  #18  
Old 12-11-2018, 01:07 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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double post
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  #19  
Old 12-11-2018, 01:17 AM
Gem Gem is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Altair
Thanks for the info Gem.
You do only powerlifting or a mix..?




I train for powerlifting, but that involves a mix of things. New lifters don't have to much variation and can stick to the competition lifts alone and add a bit of weight (like 2.5 kilos) every workout, but after 3-6 months the rapid progression plateaus because the technique has been refined and the body has adapted to that level of volume, and needs more volume overload to disrupt homeostasis and force further adaptions.


This stage is referred to as 'intermediate' and more volume is added to the program by including higher rep training and a range of accessory exercises. Progress slows a little bit, so instead of adding weight every workout, weight is added weekly to the main competition lifts.


The intermediate stage lasts a couple of years before lifters cease to make gainz. Then they enter the 'advanced stage'. At this point a more complex programming is required, so we divide it into microcycles (weekly protocol) mesocycle (some weeks) and macrocycles (a whole training cycle). Powerlifters do not compete often, so a macrocycle would tend to be 4-6 months to end on the competition date.


The first mesoocycle is the 'hypertrophy block'. The main driver of hypertrophy is volume, so the reps are kept pretty high and there is a wide variation of exercises organised into weekly microcycles. The aim of this mesocycle is gain muscle, not get stronger.



The second mesocycle is the 'strength block'. The main driver of strength is intensity, so instead of overloading volume, we overload weight, work with lower reps of 3,4,5, and train more specifically for the lifts (less variation). This is still organised into weekly microcycles.



The third mesocycle is the 'peaking block'. This block is focused on very heavy weights. It is the shortest training block only lasting a couple of weeks or so (it depends on many factors such as gender, age, the weights lifted, how advanced the athlete is etc). This block is preparing for the meet, so it becomes very specific to the lifts, very few if any variation exercises, and the rep range is singles, doubles, or sets of 3. The main aim of this the peaking block is aclimatise the body to maximal loads, while at the same time, dissipating all the fatigue which is accumulated during the hypertrophy and strength blocks - without losing any of the adaptations which were made - so that a lifter will be at their very strongest on the day of the meet (and not the day before or the day after).


My training is periodised in this way. My training cycles are 6 month plans with target goals set for a specific date (I haven't started competing yet).


All that periodisation is not at all appropriate for new athletes, so how a program is designed depends on so many things different for each individual.
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  #20  
Old 29-11-2018, 08:35 PM
Lucky 1 Lucky 1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
I would certainly consider vegetarianism because of ethical reasons associated with cruel farming practices, and also, the amount of meat I have to eat as a primary protein source is pretty extreme and doesn't seem to me to be well balanced, though my veg intake is quite high at around 8 cups a day + a couple cups of fruit as well.



I'm another lifter......In my 20's I was a competitive powerlifter....I still lift 4 days per week but have not competed for years and have backed off the weight as I've gotten older.

Your comment on the amount of meat you eat caught my attention.
This begs the question...just how much protein do you need???

Your hypothetical non-training "average person" can assimilate about 18 to 25 grams of quality protein in a single meal depending on health and physical condition

That same hypothetical "non-training person" needs about a 1/4 gram of quality protein per pound of body weight for maintenance.

I say "quality protein" ..IE, animal sources.....with vegetable sources of protein you will need more because vegetable sources of protein are not assimilated by the body as well as animal sources.

With vegetable sources of protein ....there is also the requirement to eat enough different types of protein bearing foods that you get a complete amino acid profile since most vegetable source don't have that or barely have that and so combining plant based foods becomes very necessary to get complete protein amino acid profiles.

So lets talk about a hard training lifter.

it is generally agreed by experts in the training field that hard training lifters will require 1/2 gram to as much as 1 gram of protein per pound of body weight for not just maintenance but to support growth.

It is also generally agreed that the strength athlete can assimilate a bit more protein than a non-training person.....as much as 30 to 35 grams at a sitting

So if you're are talking about very lean red meat....you are talking about perhaps a 4 to 5 oz serving....about 200 to 220 calories worth.....Consuming more than that at a single sitting adds nothing but calories to the equation as the body just can't use it all at once

If you are talking about plant based protein you will require more grams of protein bearing food simply to offset the lower average uptake of plant protein.

Gem....I'm glad you started this thread.....as a life long lifter its something I'm extremely interested in!
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Last edited by Lucky 1 : 29-11-2018 at 10:42 PM.
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