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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Christianity

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  #1  
Old 18-01-2016, 03:54 PM
ask21771 ask21771 is offline
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does sin corrupt our logic

I recently read something that says we cant trust our logic and understanding of god because our sinful nature warps our logic and reasoning, I need to know how I can prove this isnt true.
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  #2  
Old 18-01-2016, 06:08 PM
windywherever windywherever is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ask21771
I recently read something that says we cant trust our logic and understanding of god because our sinful nature warps our logic and reasoning, I need to know how I can prove this isnt true.

The apostle Paul commented on something similar to this when he talked about people, "Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (1 Tim 4:2).

The idea of having the conscience seared equates to no longer being able to hear the conscience. This definitely has an effect on our reason and logic in that it is our conscience which tries to warn us when we are acting as hypocrites, self righteous or whatever.

For example, if we act as hypocrites, then we're not acting in a rational way. The way we stop being hypocritical is to realize we are being hypocritical, because we won't change behavior which we are not consciously aware of, but we won't become aware of it if our conscience is already burned (i.e. we've decided to stop listening or caring) in that area. The more we ignore the conscience in an area, the more difficult it becomes to hear in that area.

The way to avoid this is by recognizing that there are times when we act in irrational ways. By recognizing these occurrences, we can develop strategies on how to either reduce or prevent them.

We have a strong desire to avoid uncomfortable truths about ourselves so learning to recognize the irrationality deep down will be difficult. It takes a pretty strong conviction to keep questioning and challenging ourselves but it's the only way to build strong discernment. In other words, self-judgment is the means and the proof by which we can at least begin to trust our understanding of God.
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Old 18-01-2016, 06:47 PM
sky sky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ask21771
I recently read something that says we cant trust our logic and understanding of god because our sinful nature warps our logic and reasoning, I need to know how I can prove this isnt true.


What does " sinful nature " mean ask ?
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Old 22-01-2016, 04:09 PM
ask21771 ask21771 is offline
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how do I disprove the noetic effects of sin
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Old 22-01-2016, 04:14 PM
Baile Baile is online now
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Originally Posted by ask21771
how do I disprove the noetic effects of sin
It's been pointed out on your other threads that this continual search for "proof" regarding all these questions you ask, is a fool's errand. How does anyone prove what you, in the end, will choose to believe in or not believe in? You read someone's theory and decide it's to your liking. That's all "proof" ever is, it's your decision to believe, based on your subjective likes and dislikes.
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Old 22-01-2016, 04:18 PM
Baile Baile is online now
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Originally Posted by sky123
What does " sinful nature " mean ask ?
It means someone has talked themselves into believing some particular bit of dogma telling them they're sinful.
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Old 22-01-2016, 04:28 PM
sky sky is offline
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Originally Posted by Baile
It means someone has talked themselves into believing some particular bit of dogma telling them they're sinful.


Yes, talking to yourself can be quite dangerous sometimes
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Old 22-01-2016, 05:03 PM
Frederick33 Frederick33 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ask21771
I recently read something that says we cant trust our logic and understanding of god because our sinful nature warps our logic and reasoning, I need to know how I can prove this isnt true.

well why should you want to do that ?

now what if god was water

sure drinking it would make you understand water is what it does to you
when you drink it for it quenches thirst and nourishes you in its ways

now studying H2O and braking that down in written formulas or other equations also nourishes some thing but never that what is needed or happens when drinking it also no need to think about it when drinking it

now did I not just make life far less complex or not :-)

not ? oh but tell me than. which tree of water in the garden of Eden do you drink from ? :-)
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Old 22-01-2016, 05:20 PM
Baile Baile is online now
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Originally Posted by sky123
Yes, talking to yourself can be quite dangerous sometimes
Most every personal belief is a result of talking one's self into believing it. And most every personal belief an individual embraces, is a result of choice. We choose our beliefs based on our (mostly unconscious) subjective likes and dislikes. We don't spend time thinking about whether or not the thing we believe is true or imaginary. Instead, we spend our energy constructing reality around us so that it matches the belief choices we've made.

There are in fact two questions here: 1. Does ask21771 actually believe in the notion of sinful nature?; and 2. Does this sinful nature warp our reasoning and logic? Question 2 cannot be properly and fully addressed until it's clear what the answer to question 1 is. The degree of conscious vs unconscious awareness of the topic determines the degree of clarity one can offer in the form of an answer.
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  #10  
Old 23-01-2016, 12:05 PM
IamSoul49 IamSoul49 is offline
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Hello All

Ask21771;
Quote:
I recently read something that says we cant trust our logic and understanding of god because our sinful nature warps our logic and reasoning, I need to know how I can prove this isnt true.

Here we have the essence of the (current) human condition..Im sorry to tell you though - but actually - its perfectly true,correct - our current nature does indeed,twist,misuse or even,totally ignore,our inherant logic and resoning mind - our "nature" is indeed,very very faulty - at present - for the vast majority of mankind,this is so,day to day life is a real chore for most people,struggling aginst their own nature and failing to understand Who and What they actually are....

This is the current situation,as I say - but it can change - very easily actually....But first - we need to get to the core - to understand - for instance - what is this nature that is corrupt..?...What is this "sin" that those in authority warn us of..?...

Do they even know or understand themselves..?....Apparantly not - sin is never explained adequatly in this religions texts,is it..?..Its just taken for granted - we are sinners,lost,hopeless - need a church authority (they say) to help us understand - and yet,as I say,no explanation is offered by this church - none at all...Instead,they give a little truth - twist it in this manner - then use it to hold us captive,dominated......Here though - indeed,through the process of logic - we can begin perhaps to lose those imprisoning chains they placed around us - begin to see for the Self - what is sin - what is our true nature..?..The religion cannot - will not - tell you - or permit you to come to this truth - for when you do,you will be free of their dominance- Self authority will be yours again - literally,sin free....Yeshua Who is Christ - warned us about this religion and its teachings - often and forcefully,He warned us - damn the pharisee He said - they dont know,neither do they permit us to know truth He said..

But still,they insist they are an "authority" and like blind men,we followed,and it has led us all to this confusion and division...For that is the real problem here - division - and it all starts with the Self - indeed,this divided Self,is the very essence of sin,as I shall explain....

Such a nefarious underhand,covert scheme - sin - insidious - it is upon us before we even realise the mistake,is it not..?...We are taught that it is so - something in the world - an "evil" - a devil/satan - an external influence that corrupts us,makes us wicked and evil...Out in the world - external they say....And yet,alongside,we are likewise taught that we,individually,beyond our control,are destined,born to be "sinners"...Whats that all about..?...Did this "god" they bang on about,create us all faulty then..?...

SIN : When we go look back at the original use of this word,this notion - as intended in the original manuscripts - and when we keep it in that context - we begin to see a whole new,and radically different meaning emerge....SIN - originally means simply,to miss the target - and a similar meaning,it means to be absent - not present.....Let it sink in a minute .......

So - when we "sin"- it means specifically - that we have failed because we were not PRESENT - we were not paying MIND - attention - not engaged fully in the endeavour,and so we fail,we sin,missed our intended goal..It really is that simple...

So - now we know its essence - a lack of Self awareness,to put it succinctly...Our "nature" is to be only dimly,partially,Self aware,but mostly - vastly - Self ignorant...Trust me,this is so,as I shall explain - for right now - even though we are fully intelligent,using that capacity fully engaged here reading writing these posts - still,I tell you truthfully,you are not fullyPRESENT - you are sinning right now,and are totally unaware of it...A part of you is obviously present,here,engaged fully - but this part - mortal mind - is tiny - compared to the fullness of Who and What You actually are...Until - unless - we reclaim that full Presence of Self - then we will always be a "sinner"...

We are not Present,and so we fail to acheive our goals - always so - and this is not something that an external or malevolent force has done to us - its not evil or wicked - not in its intent at least,though its outcomes can often indeed,be precisely wicked and evil...The problem is this forgetting of Self - the problem is the SOCIETY itself that we have adopted,been led into and accepted - for it is based on division always - dominance - heirachy - and see the problem clearly then - this external division we are forced to comply with,causes within the Self,a DIVISION of MIND....Living in this society as it is now,causes us to forget our Self - Who and What we are !!

As we grow,mature,find our roles within this society - we quite naturally,divide our Self to fit that which is suited...We are taught to do this - to conform always to the expectations of Others - authority,teachers,parents - "betters" - those "above us".....But look - Who is actuallyabove you..?..I tell you All truthfully here,so look closely at the Self - You - and I - and Everyone - are the living Divine spirit - truly we are,and truly,we are all equal in this regard - so now again look - society has made You forget this basic essence of Self - You became something here,created something of the Self,that you never intended to Be - and this itself - is "sin"...

Do You All see..?..It comes from within - from this divided,broken mind that we have adopted - willfully so -and with each division,we literally gave our Self away - gave our power and Divinity - gave our Self authority away,to another to rule and guide us in our own stead...To stop this sin then,we must again,become WHOLE - mend the divide within the Self - become fully Present even moment to moment,always,continous - because look - sin - its influence - is constant,insidious - it is upon us and ensnares us before we realise....There is a way to achieve this inner union - Christ taught it freely,and told us specifically His truth would set us free and make us to Be like Him...

Yeshua who is Christ - taught that everything we ever need - is already contained within us....This Kingdom they speak of where there is no "sin" - this He said,is an inner discovery - find it within and bring it up front,Present it to the world always..Sin - is to be absent,half engaged,and so inevitably to fail to achieve that which is intended....Here - in this spiritual context - that which is intended - is to Be Who and What You always were - the living Divine Spirit - if we fail to remember this about our Self - if we fail to Present it to the world - then we have sinned....Mend this broken mind first He said - become Whole,and all the secrets of Creation will become yours again...Fully Present,as He was - we will then know all that we EVER knew,as we follow His Way and Become Christ for the Self,just as He taught - and look clearly - I have existed since time began..

There is division within the Self - caused by the adopted society - the world "out there" - its not evil but it often leads us to to wicked ways if we are unwary...Pay attention to the Self always He said...Avoid the worlds influences and seek within...Uncover the eternal Self - bring that forth and it will save you from this corruption that surrounds you....Thus sin will stop - and if mankind as a whole knew this,then all negativity in this world,would cease in an instant - the Kingdom revealed here and now as Promised..Sin is simply the guidance of this low,mortal,lesser mind - it is Self ignorance and false Self belief as a mortal creature,forgetting the eternal Self entirely and following the mortal impulse at the cost of the Divine desires..

Shun the world He said (especially shun the organised religion He warned repeatedly - they do not want you to hold this wisdom,for it renders them powerless over You,obsolete,no longer needed) - instead go alone to commune He said - seek within for a secret silent place....Wait with faith and patience for the Holy Spirit to become Present here - literally this is so - the part of mind here,reading,writing these posts;will encounter,merge with ,become One,with the part of mind we call "subconscious" -and thus the journey begins - the divided mind begins to mend,become One Whole mind - -and this in turn,opens a gateway - the narrow gate He speaks of that not many can find - persevere though,for this is our destiny and our Origin - life here has made us forget that is all - so delve within again,remember the Self fully...

No priest institution,teacher,master middleman guru - nobody else - can ever do this for us - put away the bibles and sacred texts He said - come to hate and despise the parents for they led you astray - especially so in this modern world,and sometimes even,this is done on purpose...Forget all that we thought or accepted as truth - for it is all sin - all of the low mortal self - seek instead that Divine Presence within,first and always He said - to follow another in this endeavour is to lose the Self and is the basest of errors He warned - we must do this for the Self - shatter the illusion of Self that we created here and see again Who and What we eternally are - become born again as they say,of that new spirit of Self,new mind...From the Light we came and we must find this again within the Self - that secret silent place within - find it there He said,bring its Light and Wisdom out here, in the mundane world..This is Worship - Divine Love - and this is our natural state of Being - our nature that we have hidden and forgotten in these mortal shells....Reclaim our authority here,remember always,and thus we save our Self He said...As always for those with the ears to hear...
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