Why Are We Even Here?

Originally Posted by shivatar

...The point is what we clearly feel. Happiness and fear. If we did come from some all knowing source that is heavenly, then surely whatever we want to experience that is better than that is what we are experiencing now.

The point was made above that reducing ourselves to our tiny individuality just to 'experience' or to (re)learn what we already knew just doesn't quite justify the often horrific realities of life on earth. Yes, there are some good things, but there is a lot of pain, misery, and suffering as well. Some lives seem to justify our percieved potential, but most don't. In fact, those few who seem to be able to think beyond our little meat boxes are often violently oppressed by the rest. I agree with this view, that there is more going on here, that the largely prevailiong views are only part of the answer at best.

Originally Posted by shivatar

...What would be so special about that though you might say. Well it's special to be a conscious being experiencing now. If we say that every being in the universe has a special ability to "build" God in some way, to expand on what is infinite, to create within the creation new creations. ...

I agree with this. Individuality is special, especially when put in contrast with the nature of God. Of course, the nature of God is largely unknowable, but a few qualities are self evident.

The interesting quality here is omniscience. Omniscience, of course, means to know everything - total awareness, total consciousness. Contrast this with humans who are born pitifully unconscious of just about everything. We are each at the center of our own private universe, with the actual universe 'out there' which we must become conscious of by building awareness.

So right away you can see that in literal terms the more conscious we become, the more like God we become - and interestingly, the more we can incorporate consciousness of the universe within our selves, the less individuality we would maintain. Ego is our individuality. Where is their room for ego in omniscience? Logically, if and when we could ever achieve total consciousness, we would then cease to have individuality. In it's place would be another omniscience.

This makes sense to me, though it also raises a whole host of new questions. Isn't solving the universe fun?

[lemex]

Originally Posted by Kioma

Yes, there are some good things, but there is a lot of pain, misery, and suffering as well. Some lives seem to justify our perceived potential, but most don't.

Point well made. My feeling to this relationship. It is the inequality of suffering levels I question and feel those who do not suffer don't suffer at a level don't know the experience where they would change their mind. Much suffering is created to so it is not not natural if it comes from outside us. I often wonder if suffering is about everyone and what we (are suppose) do when seen. Does it represent a failing sometime.

[alphamind]

We're here because we messed up from our original state.

[inavalan]

Originally Posted by lemex

Point well made. My feeling to this relationship. It is the inequality of suffering levels I question and feel those who do not suffer don't suffer at a level don't know the experience where they would change their mind. Much suffering is created to so it is not not natural if it comes from outside us. I often wonder if suffering is about everyone and what we (are suppose) do when seen. Does it represent a failing sometime.

Do you think that somebody who was a Hitler, or Al Capone, or Mao, or Stalin, or all the "regular' murderers, could suffer too much when reincarnated?

[FallingLeaves]

Originally Posted by Kioma

The point was made above that reducing ourselves to our tiny individuality just to 'experience' or to (re)learn what we already knew just doesn't quite justify the often horrific realities of life on earth. Yes, there are some good things, but there is a lot of pain, misery, and suffering as well. Some lives seem to justify our percieved potential, but most don't. In fact, those few who seem to be able to think beyond our little meat boxes are often violently oppressed by the rest. I agree with this view, that there is more going on here, that the largely prevailiong views are only part of the answer at best.

From what I gather, the powers that be had decided that there was a certain thing that if we did it, we would start marching off toward death. And one implication is, we wouldn't even have a clue as to what we were doing... might even call what we were doing 'living' in our ignorance. Wouldn't be the first time our account of things was totally wrong, even by our own reckoning of recent history. Anyway according to them each breath we took would be an invitation to death and eventually, we would indeed wind up dead. (If you haven't guessed already I am not talking death of the body here, there is something else at stake)

I don't know the full story behind that but it seems it may be something they've seen happen before... there is talk of preceding generations and things that must come to pass for this one.

Anyway we did the 'bad' thing. And the rest of what you see -the good, the bad, the beautiful, and the ugly - is the results of the plan made to forestall the inevitable, and eventually right what is wrong.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Kioma

The point was made above that reducing ourselves to our tiny individuality just to 'experience' or to (re)learn what we already knew just doesn't quite justify the often horrific realities of life on earth. Yes, there are some good things, but there is a lot of pain, misery, and suffering as well. Some lives seem to justify our percieved potential, but most don't. In fact, those few who seem to be able to think beyond our little meat boxes are often violently oppressed by the rest. I agree with this view, that there is more going on here, that the largely prevailiong views are only part of the answer at best.


I agree with this. Individuality is special, especially when put in contrast with the nature of God. Of course, the nature of God is largely unknowable, but a few qualities are self evident.

The interesting quality here is omniscience. Omniscience, of course, means to know everything - total awareness, total consciousness. Contrast this with humans who are born pitifully unconscious of just about everything. We are each at the center of our own private universe, with the actual universe 'out there' which we must become conscious of by building awareness.

So right away you can see that in literal terms the more conscious we become, the more like God we become - and interestingly, the more we can incorporate consciousness of the universe within our selves, the less individuality we would maintain. Ego is our individuality. Where is their room for ego in omniscience? Logically, if and when we could ever achieve total consciousness, we would then cease to have individuality. In it's place would be another omniscience.

This makes sense to me, though it also raises a whole host of new questions. Isn't solving the universe fun?

I don't think it's about the goods or the bads in life. The goods don't justify the bads.

Rather, they are interconnected in a way that can only be seen as divine when we stop looking at the trees and look at the forest. The good makes the bad, the bad makes the good. There is none without the other. both are equally important parts of the cycle of life.

Originally Posted by shivatar

I don't think it's about the goods or the bads in life. The goods don't justify the bads.

Agree.

Originally Posted by shivatar

Rather, they are interconnected in a way that can only be seen as divine when we stop looking at the trees and look at the forest. The good makes the bad, the bad makes the good. There is none without the other. both are equally important parts of the cycle of life.

Agree again.

Another question is; If God is all powerful, and wants ascended souls, then why doesn't S/He just whip them up as needed and enjoy? Why the subterfuge? Why create an entire physicality and have this great charade?

We've heard some answers, but as discussed some are more satisfactory than others. Many here are less than satisfied with a zero-sum game 'unlearning' just to relearn. Does this go on forever in some sort of cosmic masturbation? I don't think so. Could it be that there is something about the process, about the charade itself that is necessary to God's plan? So the question, IMO, is much bigger than the OP. We are not separate from the universe.

This is largely the basis of my views.

[davidsun]

Originally Posted by Kioma

The point was made above that reducing ourselves to our tiny individuality just to 'experience' or to (re)learn what we already knew just doesn't quite justify the often horrific realities of life on earth. Yes, there are some good things, but there is a lot of pain, misery, and suffering as well. Some lives seem to justify our perceived potential, but most don't.

Lots of different explanations for why so many things are as 'horrific' as they are. Here are some of mine (just some, mind you; I also see others factors as being causally involved):

There were times, such as the period during which we were hunter-gatherers and simple herders, when relatively limited perspective and short-term design, governed by the instinctual imperative to “be fruitful and multiply” (as projected to be “God’s” desire in Genesis 9:7) were indeed sufficient. In a world where dominance has not yet been established by any particular species, creative purpose is well-served by general efforts towards material productivity and biological reproduction. Kept from over*expanding by inability to prevail, populations remain in dynamic balance. When no particular group monopolized the stage, the stream of Life moved forward smoothly, without interruption.

But drastic consequences ensued once we attained and consolidated a position of unrivaled ascendancy (as one species or another was bound to eventually, given Life’s inherent ‘upward’ aspiration). With others no longer able to functionally constrain our growth, we have since then repeatedly expanded past the point that our ecosystem could regeneratively support and sustain. Severe crises have continued to recur as the needs and desires of increasing numbers of us have cyclically exhausted the productive capacity of our environment, precipitating ecological disasters and massive populational deletions. Again and again, as now once more, we have found ourselves caught in a tightening net, faced with life-or-death prospects in increasingly competitive relationship with one another, as available resources become insufficient.

Events and trends of this and recent centuries highlight the escalating process. As individuals and groups continue to multiply and aspire to ever greater power and attainment in the context of a finite setting, in addition to increasing levels of stress, more and more suffer unwelcome privation.a As returns gradually diminish, more and more have to work harder and harder to make a decent living; and fewer and fewer of those who are functionally dependent are adequately provided for and protected (witness the plight of so many of our children!).

As exploitation becomes exhaustive, those at a competitive disadvantage sink into poverty and become increasingly malnourished and ill-effected by environmental pollution. Not just materially; analogous trends are evidenced in realms of Mind and Spirit. The texture of emotion and awareness becomes more and more nightmarish. Eventually, all hell breaks loose—anomie, anxiety and frustration spread and build into an epidemic of loneliness, paranoia and rage, and finally explode, with more and more people trying to escape hopelessness, in an avalanche of insane desperation.

Synchronously, relationships break down. As people feel deprived or threatened, immediate self-interest eclipses empathy based on mutual identification. Respect and goodwill fall by the wayside. Personal desires are opportunistically asserted as valid, even as their equivalents in others are adamantly rejected as unwarranted impositions.

Sociopathology proliferates. Love becomes a mere charade; more and more often, fanciful attraction just leads to a bed of thorns. Marriages more frequently fall apart; proportionally fewer true unions are formed. Homes become battlegrounds; family life degenerates into a horror-show, full of ill will and discontent. Parents become increasingly negli*gent and abusive; children more rebellious and insolent. Cultural transmission is disrupted as the young and the old become mutually unsympathetic, each begrudging the special considerations and opportunities the other, by virtue of organic status, should be afforded. Even institutional settings specifically designed to promote growth and well-being become wastelands, as more and more functionaries don’t truly care for their charges and their charges become increasingly dysfunctional and vindictive in response.

It should come as no surprise. As individuals and groups press up against and are reciprocally pressured by others, not of their liking or choosing, the desire to have and the fear of being had catalytically combine to spark distrust and inflame antagonism. In such context, some behave like lone wolves; others like dogs gone mad. Most, however, join in unholy alliance, not united by love of Life but by shared greed and common aversions.

Not recognizing the desire for self-enhancement itself to be the underlying cause of the dissatisfaction and distress they experience and encounter, individuals and groups project blame outward, rationalizing that they and theirs are (or would be, if they didn’t vigilantly ensure other*wise) insufficiently given to and excessively taken advantage of. Denying their own duplicity and viewing others as particularly villainous, as circumstances deteriorate, they justify uncharitability and deceit as legitimate means of getting ahead, and treachery and the wreaking of vengeance as fair ways of getting even.

Mutually beneficial arrangements for the sharing and exchange of labor and its fruits consequently break down. Alliance against alliance, ideology against ideology, ethnic group against ethnic group, class against class, and newcomers against the establishment, as well as in-groups against the outcast within them, rivalries become so cutthroat that enmity develops between people, wherever categorically different. Whether hypocritically hidden or openly done, incidences of criminal dereliction and abuse become more insidious, more violational, more widespread, and more frequent.

Recurrently, at the tail end of a period of relative abundance during which all sorts of developments tend to flourish and proliferate, a dominant but unlearned species such as ours experiences an evolutionary crisis characterized by extremes of the forementioned abominations. Not as simply as the collapse of a weakened structure or the bursting of an overly distended balloon, more like earthquake activity and volcanic explosions, the growth of the complex of our pressures past the limits of multifaceted ecosystemic containment occasions destructive disequilibrium in a series of episodes, with ones less catastrophic bracketing holocausts of major proportions.

And, unfortunately, as our capabilities naturally expand and increase, to the degree they continue to be one-sidedly deployed, they serve to magnify the scale and extent of the atrocities that are unleashed.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by Kioma

Agree.


Agree again.

Another question is; If God is all powerful, and wants ascended souls, then why doesn't S/He just whip them up as needed and enjoy? Why the subterfuge? Why create an entire physicality and have this great charade?

We've heard some answers, but as discussed some are more satisfactory than others. Many here are less than satisfied with a zero-sum game 'unlearning' just to relearn. Does this go on forever in some sort of cosmic masturbation? I don't think so. Could it be that there is something about the process, about the charade itself that is necessary to God's plan? So the question, IMO, is much bigger than the OP. We are not separate from the universe.

This is largely the basis of my views.

God doesn't want nor does God desire enlightened souls/ascended souls.

God wants to enjoy a good show. And what good show doesn't have a challenge before a victory?

The subterfuge builds the show, makes it more delicious.

We are not seprate from the universe, from the experience of joy, but we are not immortal either, like joy is not immortal.

I think peoples problem is they want to have infinite glory. They want to say "look, I helped God acheive it's master plan! I want everlasting life, I deserve it!". Then they want to be gifted what they desire. How many times in life have you gotten what you wanted and it was exaclty as fulfilling as you wanted it?


Life is a never ending cycle. God is a never ending consumption of joy. Of the universe as it is.

There is no reason in this. We must simply learn to enjoy the portion of the universe that has been granted to us.

[shivatar]

Originally Posted by davidsun

Lots of different explanations for why so many things are as 'horrific' as they are. Here are some of mine (just some, mind you; I also see others factors as being causally involved):

Hello davidsun. It's nice to see you again