TALKING TO THE DEAD: PERMITTED BY GOD OR GRAVE SIN?

Originally Posted by Triner

You're going to have to learn that on your own. Hint: it's definition is NOT just what's in the Bible. It's far beyond it.

LOL! I know what Holy means. I was asking you because I'd like to know what your definition of Holy is.

Yes, you were deflecting. Please answer the question.

Originally Posted by LisaLisa

No, that's not correct. We do express God's Love. You do not understand God. God is HOLY. Do you understand what Holy is?

Please explain Holy, LisaLisa.
Please explain the relationship between God's holiness and how you express God's love.
What is the connection between God's holiness and how you express God's love.

[Triner]

Originally Posted by LisaLisa

LOL! I know what Holy means. I was asking you because I'd like to know what your definition of Holy is.

Yes, you were deflecting. Please answer the question.

Nope, not playing. Discussing semantics with a fundamentalist is pointless.

Originally Posted by LisaLisa

LOL! I know what Holy means. I was asking you because I'd like to know what your definition of Holy is.

Yes, you were deflecting. Please answer the question.

First off, I noticed no one touched my former question, (guess no one had a chance to google it yet and see what the fundamentalist answer to that question is.) The problem is, and I don't want to come across as mean by saying this; but fundamentalists bend the facts and sell half truths just like the atheist scientists do who will go to any length to disprove anything spiritual. This is one of the reasons I dumped their religion.

And number two..... Lisa, do you define Holy as being intolerant and irresponsible? Think of it this way; Some folks would have us believe that God created Satan... which means God created evil. Then he unleashes it on humanity and then judges them for giving into the temptations of the evil he created.

REALLY????? God creates the evil and the sin by making Satan and then sits back and says he will not tolerate anyone who sins???? And says he is too holy to even be in the presence of sin????? Again I say, REALLY???? You don't see a major contradiction and problem in all this? And please don't give me the old lame excuse that God's ways are higher than our ways and we can't possibly know the reason for it all right now........ That does not cut it. If God cannot tolerate sin and evil,, and he judges it... should not someone judge him for creating it in the first place? This rendition of God cannot possibly be accurate.

If I were a brilliant scientists and created a lifeform that was evil, depraved and murderous. Then I set that lifefrom loose on society and it killed and raped and then taught other people to do the same and join it. Am I innocent, good or holy if I sit back and condemn that lifeform for what it does and the people who follow it as if it were some kind of god? NO!!!! A thousand times no... That would make me a hypocrite and even guilty for creating such a beast, knowing what it was, what it would do, but creating it anyway and setting free among the civilized world. I would probably face some kind of charges myself and do time or worse. What makes anyone think that God would or could do the same thing yet bend the univers law of justice and escape his own wrath???? That God would be unjust and an arrogant bully. This cannot be so or the universe and God are insane, unjust and cruel. What kind of heaven would such a God make? It could be a living hell. The whole idea just does not make sense.... or I should say, God sense.

That's not holy.... that is hateful, manipulative and wrong.

Excellent post Mind's Eye.

I will just add a quote because it says it so well:

One cannot claim God as the synthesis of the whole Universe, as Omnipresent and Omniscient and Infinite, and then divorce him from evil. As there is far more evil than good in the world, it follows on logical grounds that either God must include evil, or stand as the direct cause of it, or else surrender his claims to absoluteness. The ancients understood this so well that their philosophers -- now followed by the Kabalists -- defined evil as the lining of God or Good: Demon est Deus inversus, being a very old adage. Indeed, evil is but an antagonizing blind force in nature; it is reaction, opposition, and contrast, -- evil for some, good for others.
[...]

"Lead us not into Temptation" is addressed daily to "our Father, which art in Heaven," and not to the Devil, by millions of human Christian hearts. They do so, repeating the very words put in the mouth of their Saviour, and do not give one thought to the fact that their meaning is contradicted point blank by James "the brother of the Lord." "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." -- (The Gen. Ep. of James, i, 13). Why, then, say that it is the Devil who tempts us, when the Church teaches us on the authority of Christ that it is God who does so? Open any pious volume in which the word "temptation" is defined in its theological sense, and forthwith you find two definitions: (1) "Those afflictions and troubles whereby God tries his people;" (2) Those means and enticements which the Devil makes use of to ensnare and allure mankind. (St. James i., 2, 12, and Mat. vi., 13.) If accepted literally, the two teachings of Christ and James contradict each other, and what dogma can reconcile the two if the occult meaning is rejected?

The definition of occult is not 'evil.'

Holy is what God "IS".

He is the definition of HOLY. His glory is HOLY. His power is HOLY. His presence is HOLY. His will is HOLY. Everything He does, and everything about Him, IS HOLY. Holy is all powerful.

You can't see God and live because He is HOLY. His glory would kill a human being, it's that powerful.

Sin can't be in the presence of His Glory. That is why you can't enter into heaven unless your sins are removed, because heaven is a HOLY place and sin can't remain there.

That is why, unless your sins are removed before you die, you will not enter into heaven. Sin and God are not compatible because God is without sin (HOLY) and His Kingdom (heaven) is also Holy.

I realize that many here won't understand or believe this because they don't understand the real God and they don't know who He is. But, this is the truth.

Originally Posted by Mind's Eye

The next thing I would like to do is address our friends Lisa and Theo. And I would ask them this; are you aware that there is a book contained within the dead sea scrolls that calls St. Paul a heritic? I believe it is a book said to be authored by James who said that Peter caledl St. Paul the apostle of the lie and warned the churches about him.

Religious leaders are fighting tooth and nail to have this book buried in a vault somewhere and never released to the public. The leaders of Christinaity are very worried about this book.... why? If it were a lie or just some fanciful tale of some random man, why the rush to keep this book out of the public eye?

And if this book be based on fact; what does that say about the religion that has told us that the Bible is God's infallible world? Could it really be God's word if it contains books written by a man who was a liar and a heritic?

I don't question the spirit of Christ or the Divine Creator... But I question the hell out of the religions that hand us down "what God said and what God teaches."

-Finis-

Sorry about missing your question, I haven't been following this thread very closely.

Yes, I'm well aware of the arguments against Paul. I've actually read many of them myself, and have questioned Paul myself, and I still do to be completely honest. I have some problems with some of the things that Paul said. Could it just be my own misunderstanding, or am I detecting something dirty at play regarding Paul? I really don't know. But, since I've had my own doubts about Paul, I stick with what Jesus taught, His words only, and of course the Torah and the whole Old Testament.

I'm much closer to a Messianic Jew then I am a Christian. I don't attend a "christian" church and never will. I see errors there that I can't ignore. I won't get into them unless you want to know.

My husband is also a messianic jew, and I attend Sabbath services on saturday and will never attend a sunday christian service. Many other things that Christians do that I don't believe in, and refuse to participate in, like christmas easter and others because of their pagan origins.

I wasn't aware of a dead sea scroll that calls paul a liar, haven't heard of that before, but I don't doubt that it exists and I"d love to get my hands on a copy to read it for myself. Can you provide a link to that so I can investigate further?

[Triner]

Originally Posted by LisaLisa

Sin can't be in the presence of His Glory. That is why you can't enter into heaven unless your sins are removed, because heaven is a HOLY place and sin can't remain there.

That is why, unless your sins are removed before you die, you will not enter into heaven. Sin and God are not compatible because God is without sin (HOLY) and His Kingdom (heaven) is also Holy.

I realize that many here won't understand or believe this because they don't understand the real God and they don't know who He is. But, this is the truth.

But God is infinite. God is everywhere. God is All. If evil and sin exist as you say, then it must exist inside God because there is nowhere God is NOT.

And, God created All. So, according to you, God must have created evil and sin as well.

Either your God is not infinite, not ominpresent, or there is no such thing as sin. It just can't be any other way.

Those are a few of the obvious contradictions in what you share. Please explain.

Originally Posted by Triner

But God is infinite. God is everywhere. God is All. If evil and sin exist as you say, then it must exist inside God because there is nowhere God is NOT.

And, God created All. So, according to you, God must have created evil and sin as well.

Either your God is not infinite, not ominpresent, or there is no such thing as sin. It just can't be any other way.

Those are a few of the obvious contradictions in what you share. Please explain.

Yes, there is a place where God is not. That's would be hell. There is no part of God in hell. Hell is the total and complete absence of God.

God also doesn't reside on earth. His Holy Spirit is on earth, and His people live on earth, but God Himself resides in another realm, the spiritual realm. He's not physical.

Some of His glory was inside of the Ark of the Covenant. Someone touched it and died. When God's glory came down on the mountain where moses was to give him the 10 commandments, God gave specific instructions that while His glory was on the mountain that nobody should touch the mountain, not even an animal, or they would die.

There is alot more..........I could discuss this topic for a year. Alot of information.

[Triner]

Originally Posted by LisaLisa

Yes, there is a place where God is not. That's would be hell. There is no part of God in hell. Hell is the total and complete absence of God.

God also doesn't reside on earth. His Holy Spirit is on earth, and His people live on earth, but God Himself resides in another realm, the spiritual realm. He's not physical.

Then your particular flavor is God is not infinite. He is not omnipresent. If God can be removed from somewhere by sin, then he is limited. And that is simply wrong.

You've resolved some of the contradictions in the Bible by decreasing God instead of allowing the Bible to be wrong. Your Book is more powerful to you than God. I think that's just silly.