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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Religions & Faiths > Hinduism

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  #11  
Old 20-11-2019, 11:46 PM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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btw, the historic Buddha did disagree with the Vedas and in effect with later related Upanishads which he spent his lifetime teaching against and denying their import - even though he was greatly assisted early on by Hindu related teachers as recorded in core Buddhist doctrine ...thus Buddhism is not for me.
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  #12  
Old 21-11-2019, 12:18 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Originally Posted by handy guy
umm, I don't disagree with the revealed teachings of the Vedas and related Upanishads, my point is that different schools of Hinduism with supposedly Self realized founders (which is hard to deny in many of their cases) and their well known lineages disagree with each other on several major and important points! (while still having said to have the same Self realization/unity, and that to me does not compute on a spiritual level)

For instance there are several major disagreements about revealed doctrine within even the 6 main Saivate schools, not to mention even greater divisions and disagreements with other major Hindu sects when it comes to soul, creation, maya, Self realization, Avatars, etc.!

Regardless of that I appreciate the great tolerance and working with others
that so many Hindu's demonstrate!
The thing is that Hinduism, for all intents and purposes, was never meant to be understood as a "revealed religion" to the same extent that the Abrahamic Religions are and also, Hinduism isn't really a "Religion" either, but a collection of various lifestyles and ideologies which have been placed under one umbrella by explorers from the West. The only thing that each school has in common, really, is the notion of Dharma according to Vedas...which I believe was just adopted as an "afterthought" to unify the various schools for political agendas.

"Bhinneka Tunggal Ika" in Kawi/Pallava....it means "Unity in Diversity" and it is the motto of a pre-Islamic Indonesia.

Thus, I apologise...I am not one of the more "patient/tolerant ones" because I grow weary of people questioning their own beliefs in the form of harsh criticism, when the option is there to adopt a whole different belief system and to "dream a better dream"...but they don't want to do that...they just want to criticise and whine about what they personally believe in and I cannot see the point of doing that...this is something which totally defies logical explanation and anything which does, makes me very uncomfortable.

Buddhism rejected the Vedas based upon the Caste System mainly...and there are many Hindus who disagree with the Caste System, even though it is "law" according to the holy scriptures, so what do? Stop being a Hindu because to be Hindu means you must accept Caste System? Many have done JUST that...while others ignore it because it doesn't relate to them personally while others wonder how the same Religion which teaches about Brahman...teaches about non Duality can also separate and segregate individuals into distinct socio-economic groupings with attenuated bias.

However, one just has to go to Bali, Indonesia (where I grew up and was educated) to see the "success story" of the Caste System..where the Shudras are treated with as much respect and dignity as the Brahmins...the same cannot be said for what has occurred in India in recent times.

I am pretty much 'Old School Hindu' ...with all of those "outdated" ideologies and methodologies which belonged to a much different age than the current Kali Yuga...I cannot associate with the world, as it is at present at ALL and it feels like someone just dumped me here from 5,000 years ago as part of some kind of "cruel joke".

....and yes, various schools of Shaivism disagree with each other...I had to go through the gammut of ALL of them before I found one that resonated with me on SOME level...that of Pashupata Shaivism and Shaiva Siddhanta..even though I also resonate with the Bon Buddhist Tradition of Tibet... anything which has "Mahakaal" as a main Deity.

I followed the line of Rishi Markandeya from the South Indian Nayanars through Tibet and down through South East Asia...there are some hill tribes in Laos who still practice Hinduism the way I remember it..

Aum Namah Shivaya
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  #13  
Old 21-11-2019, 12:51 AM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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agreed that Hinduism does not have a Pope in charge of it all type of figure...but it surely has lineage holders/gurus in authority and in charge of particular schools with their Swami's and other students along with householder membership, thus in that sense I'd say the word religion has some bearing.

agreed that problems with how the caste system was implemented over time and became corrupted by egotistical ways has caused, and is still causing a lot of suffering - which was never originally intended in my understanding. I'm glad to hear from you that that is not the case in Bali. Also and of course in many forms of Buddhism the Gods are not of much importance, and then there are teachings about "no-self"/no soul which are probably the #1 disagreement and difference compared to Hindu teachings.
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  #14  
Old 21-11-2019, 01:22 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by handy guy
agreed that Hinduism does not have a Pope in charge of it all type of figure...but it surely has lineage holders/gurus in authority and in charge of particular schools with their Swami's and other students along with householder membership, thus in that sense I'd say the word religion has some bearing.

agreed that problems with how the caste system was implemented over time and became corrupted by egotistical ways has caused, and is still causing a lot of suffering - which was never originally intended in my understanding. I'm glad to hear from you that that is not the case in Bali. Also and of course in many forms of Buddhism the Gods are not of much importance, and then there are teachings about "no-self"/no soul which are probably the #1 disagreement and difference compared to Hindu teachings.
We shall go back to the notion and understanding of the Yugas to address this argument.

Currently, we are in Kali Yuga.

Have you ever played the "Telephone Game?" also known as the "Chinese Whispers Game"? A message gets passed on down a chain and the message that was input in no way resembles what comes out the other end?

There are many translations, perceptions, biases etc which "get in the way" and which play a part in fostering and perpetuating a misunderstanding which only leads to more misunderstandings in any attempt to rectify it.

In the beginning of the manvantara, the Ishwara imparted this Divine knowledge in two ways...the first group of students were the Sanat Kumaras...the four quadruplet children who took instruction directly from the feet of the Lord...it is where the term "Sanatana Dharma" comes from.

The Lord originally taught the Vedas to them and they, in turn, went off in the four directions to spread it all over the globe.

The second group of students of the Divine...the Holy Initiates of the Supreme Wisdom were the Sapta Rishis (associated with the Pleaides star cluster). They were taught in silence by an Avatar of Lord Shiva known as Sri Dakshinamurthy.

The Sapta Rishis became the first Ascended Masters who periodically come down to Earth from time to time to instruct mankind...but the last time that happened was about 7,000 years ago...and since then, we have all been playing the "he said/she said" game to justify the investment we have placed in our faith, either individually or collectively.

Since inception, since the seed was planted, the tree has produced many branches so as to be totally unrecognizable from the tree on which they sprout and this will only come to an end when Kali Yuga does.
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  #15  
Old 21-11-2019, 03:08 AM
handy guy handy guy is offline
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ok and very interesting, but as I'm sure you know there are also the great many masters, saints, guru's, swami's, and others that have also come and gone in the last 7000 years who have shared and given enlightened spiritual inspiration and teachings of great depth...and all of those past and present can help us but they can not do what we need to do for ourselves.
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  #16  
Old 21-11-2019, 04:53 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Originally Posted by handy guy
ok and very interesting, but as I'm sure you know there are also the great many masters, saints, guru's, swami's, and others that have also come and gone in the last 7000 years who have shared and given enlightened spiritual inspiration and teachings of great depth...and all of those past and present can help us but they can not do what we need to do for ourselves.
Verily so.

If you ask a million Hindus to fill in a survey, asking who they consider to be an "Enlightened Master" you will get many and varied responses...everything from Vivekananda to Gandhi to Ramana Maharishi to Jesus Christ to Sadhguru to their own teacher nobody has ever heard of before..

Many different schools of thought exist in India...over 33 crore of different denominations are there, but when we break it down to nitty gritty the thing all schools of philosophy have in common, is the notion of Karma Yoga - serving and helping others and sacrificing those things which lead one to follow the path of adharma...but what those things are will vary from school to school.

Each different school with their respective teachers of certain traditions just provide the seeker with a smorgasbord of ideas and practices to suit individual temperaments and psychological profiles when it comes to being able to adapt to surrendering of the ego to something bigger/other than what it is...and yes, in the end it is something we need to do on our own even though for certain stages of the journey, guidance is required.
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  #17  
Old 21-11-2019, 07:42 AM
God-Like God-Like is offline
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Originally Posted by handy guy
the "all is illusion" saying is common in many interpretations of Buddhism and certain schools of Hinduism which I see as a potentially dangerous nihilistic falsehood.

I think one has to be very clear on what is mean't by illusory or dream like and also have the comparison in their locker in order to know life is but a dream and such likes . Most don't have a comparison for what isn't like a dream and what isn't illusory so I can't help but point out the invalidity in such statements.

What I have found is this analogy has many holes and flaws and I haven't seen any sane minded peep walk in front of a bus believing that the self is illusory or the bus is a dream bus and so forth .

It's all spiritual floaty talk that isn't actually lived .

You won't find buddha falling on his sword in order to prove to his devotees that life is but a dream.

The cold stark reality is that buddha would not be able to do an encore once the deed was done ..

Perhaps in the afterlife, but not of the physical world ..

The physical world therefore holds weight and in many ways it is not likened to a dream at all .


x daz x
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  #18  
Old 21-11-2019, 08:08 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Originally Posted by God-Like
I think one has to be very clear on what is mean't by illusory or dream like and also have the comparison in their locker in order to know life is but a dream and such likes . Most don't have a comparison for what isn't like a dream and what isn't illusory so I can't help but point out the invalidity in such statements.

What I have found is this analogy has many holes and flaws and I haven't seen any sane minded peep walk in front of a bus believing that the self is illusory or the bus is a dream bus and so forth .

It's all spiritual floaty talk that isn't actually lived .

You won't find buddha falling on his sword in order to prove to his devotees that life is but a dream.

The cold stark reality is that buddha would not be able to do an encore once the deed was done ..

Perhaps in the afterlife, but not of the physical world ..

The physical world therefore holds weight and in many ways it is not likened to a dream at all .


x daz x
There is a tale..

One day, a devotee of God was walking along the street immersed in chanting the names of the Lord... endeavouring to see all as an expression of the Divine, when from out of nowhere, a wild elephant appeared and it was charging in his general direction. The mahut (driver) of elephant was making every effort to slow the beast down ..telling everyone to get out of the way ..to run away and find safety from being seriously injured.

However, the devotee stood still in the same place; "elephant is God... Everything is God...so when the mad elephant sees me, it will stop...I will be saved from its rampage..." Well, you can guess what happened next, right?

Next day, devotee was in hospital..broken arms, broken legs and ribs..bruises all over..internal bleeding and his Guru visited the devotee in hospital.."what on Earth happened to YOU?" The devotee related the whole story..how he saw the God inside the elephant, so he thought the elephant would stop and not trample him..

The Guru turned to the devotee and said "well, OBVIOUSLY you never saw the God inside the mahut driver telling you to get the hell outta the way, isn't it?"

Another time...a dam burst and there were great floods everywhere..

The waters quickly rose and a man was trapped upon his roof...a boat came by to rescue him.."quickly, climb on board the boat! The waters are going to rise even more and you will not survive"....well, the stranded man o the roof said "don't worry about me...God will come and rescue me" and so the boat went away, leaving the man where he was...

The waters kept on rising...now the water was up to his waist when along came a helicopter and dropped a ladder "hurry up and climb aboard..we are rescuing you..if you don't come with us, you will surely drown"..however, the stubborn man stayed right where he was.."it is okay .. don't worry, God is going to save me"..and the helicopter went away.

Well, the man eventually drowned and went to heaven and met God...he said to God:

"Where WERE you? Why didn't you save me like I expected that you would?"

God said: "I tried! I really did! I even sent a boat and a helicopter for you..."

This all relates somehow... somehow...

Aum Namah Shivaya
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  #19  
Old 21-11-2019, 08:20 AM
sky sky is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shivani Devi
There is a tale..

One day, a devotee of God was walking along the street immersed in the names of the Lord... endeavouring to see all as an expression of the Divine when from out of nowhere, a wild elephant appeared...charging in his general direction. The mahut (driver) of elephant was making every effort to slow the beast down ..telling everyone to get out of the way ..to run away and find safety from being seriously injured .

However, the devotee staid still in the place; "elephant is God... Everything is God...so when the mad elephant sees me, it will stop..I will be saved from it's rampage..." Well, you can guess what happened .

Next day, devotee was in hospital..broken arms, legs, ribs..bruises all over..internal bleeding and his Guru visited the devotee.."what on Earth happened to you?" The devotee related the whole story..how he saw the God I the elephant, so he thought the elephant would stop..

The Guru turned to the devotee and said "well, OBVIOUSLY you never saw the God inside the mahut telling you to get the hell outta the way, isn't it?"

Another day..a damn burst and there were great floods everywhere..

The waters quickly rose and a man was trapped upon his roof...a boat came by to rescue him.."quickly, climb on board the boat! The waters are going to rise even more and you will not survive"....well, the stranded man o the roof said "don't worry about me...God will come and rescue me" and so the boat went away, leaving the man where he was...

The waters kept on rising...now the water was up to his waist when along came a helicopter and dropped a ladder "hurry up and climb aboard..we are rescuing you..if you don't come with us, you will surely drown"..however, the stubborn man stayed right where he was.."it is okay .. don't worry, God is going to save me"..and the helicopter went away.

Well, the man eventually drowned and went to heaven and met God...he said to God:

"Where WERE you? Why didn't you save me like I expected that you would?"

God said: "I tried! I really did! I even sent a boat and a helicopter for you..."

This relates somehow... somehow...

Aum Namah Shivaya



Oh well thanks to Shiv and the Elephant there goes my cup of coffee everywhere, it's good to start the day with a laugh and a coffee, in future separately.

Thanks Shiv
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  #20  
Old 21-11-2019, 08:26 AM
Shivani Devi Shivani Devi is offline
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Originally Posted by sky123
Oh well thanks to Shiv and the Elephant there goes my cup of coffee everywhere, it's good to start the day with a laugh and a coffee, in future separately.

Thanks Shiv
No probs

Yah, next time you will know better than to be drinking or eating anything whilst reading my posts.
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