The Metaphysics of Quantum Mechanics

[hybrid]

Originally Posted by JaysonR

Alright, could you explain the mechanism that accomplishes that arrival of realism in the macroscopic system?

the mechanism is interference http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interfe...propagation%29


decoherence is a more promising explanation of the collapse and not the direct interference of consciousness. quantum collapse thru consciousness is a mistaken assumption that the particles we experimented upon are separated from its environment. it is not, the isolation of particle from it's environment that we created in the lab is artificial. then we attributed to consciousnesses its collapse by thinking it's us that triggered the collapse.

it is suffice to say that the measuring device and the measured object is one inseparable system. and this complex dynamic interactions eliminates all wave interference (destructive interference) and what we measured or observed is the apparent collapse. a self mechanism to quantize (create a measurable particle) itself.

[JaysonR]

I don't want to come off wrong, but I'm actually looking for Kepler's answer because the confusion is between the two of us in regards to the point we're speaking of.
So it will help to have Kepler walk me through and then we can walk through as a team.

Originally Posted by JaysonR

(Sorry; I do troubleshooting all day long. I find it easier to take one small step at a time when there is a confusion between two discussing parties - thereby reducing the variables of where the confusion is.)

No apologies needed, this is a good strategy.

Originally Posted by hybrid

decoherence is a more promising explanation of the collapse and not the direct interference of consciousness. quantum collapse thru consciousness is a mistaken assumption that the particles we experimented upon are separated from its environment. it is not, the isolation of particle from it's environment that we created in the lab is artificial. then we attributed to consciousnesses its collapse by thinking it's us that triggered the collapse.

it is suffice to say that the measuring device and the measured object is one inseparable system. and this complex dynamic interactions eliminates all wave interference (destructive interference) and what we measured or observed is the apparent collapse. a self mechanism to quantize (create a measurable particle) itself.

Yeah, this seems like a good way of looking at it.

Originally Posted by JaysonR

I don't want to come off wrong, but I'm actually looking for Kepler's answer because the confusion is between the two of us in regards to the point we're speaking of.
So it will help to have Kepler walk me through and then we can walk through as a team.

Honestly, the mechanism by which decoherence produces classical behavior in macroscopic systems is hard to explain in everyday terms, simply because I don't understand it in everyday terms (nor do I claim to fully understand it in any terms, it's QM after all. )

The explanation that makes the most intuitive sense to me is the phase space one outlined in the wiki article. However, it may not make much conceptual sense if you haven't been formally introduced to stuff like linear algebra or phase space.

Anyway, here's another way I can kind of intuitively understand what's going on. (We are entering dangerous territory! This is just how I'm understanding this in a conceptual way, and is not a perfect analogy, and in fact is probably wrong. I hope it is at least somewhat useful.)


Here goes:

We previously discussed "realism" and wavefunction collapse. I have said that there may be reason to believe that, for isolated (this "isolated" bit will become important in a second) particles, realism does not hold. In other words, an isolated electron does not have an exact position until it is measured. When it is measured, the electron's wave function collapses to a definite value (and we can say "It's right here!"). However! In the real world, electrons are not isolated. Electrons are always bumping into other stuff (like other electrons or nuclei). In fact, the world is made up of a bunch of small particles that are all bumping into each other all the time! As hybrid mentioned above, things are constantly interacting with their environment. This environmental interaction causes the wave functions of all of the things interacting to collapse to definite values, which produces classical phenomena. This occurs anytime you have a bunch of stuff interacting (i.e. something "big").

I hope this helps clarify things a bit. Again, this is not necessarily an exact description of what is "actually going on", I am just offering it as a way of thinking about this that may be useful. I'll search around and see if I can find any other conceptual descriptions of decoherence. Chances are, I'll end up back here correct my above example.

What I can say, though, is that it is generally accepted that decoherence is what is responsible for the emergence of classical behavior on the large scale. At least, that's what the physicists say. Until I can better wrap my head around the details of this process (I don't know if that will ever happen, lol), I'll just have to leave it at that.

[JaysonR]

Perfect.
(And I don't think you got that wrong at all, btw; that's quite on par)

Now,

We previously discussed "realism" and wavefunction collapse. I have said that there may be reason to believe that, for isolated (this "isolated" bit will become important in a second) particles, realism does not hold. In other words, an isolated electron does not have an exact position until it is measured. When it is measured, the electron's wave function collapses to a definite value (and we can say "It's right here!"). However!

We'll only walk away from this with the idea of the individual, isolated to itself, is - for all practical purposes - seemingly sporadically anywhere. (assuming we don't put our finger on it; we're just going to not measure the world for a moment)

In the real world, electrons are not isolated. Electrons are always bumping into other stuff (like other electrons or nuclei). In fact, the world is made up of a bunch of small particles that are all bumping into each other all the time! As hybrid mentioned above, things are constantly interacting with their environment. This environmental interaction causes the wave functions of all of the things interacting to collapse to definite values, which produces classical phenomena. This occurs anytime you have a bunch of stuff interacting (i.e. something "big").

Quite.

Now, why both.
That was my standing.
It sounds trivial at first.

And decoherence doesn't really answer the why; it tells us why the moon doesn't disappear when we're not looking, but not why both are the case at the same time.

How does the arrangement of the nature of matter support a behavior like both of these descriptions.


Here's another way of stating that.
Imagine seeing the tiny glints from the Sun off the ocean surface.
Now imagine you cannot see the ocean.
They seem to appear and disappear without a tangible reason.

Then add the ocean back; now they make sense.

What my visualization hints at is a sort of QM ocean.

But instead of looking at glints from the Sun, let's now change this to water molecules at the crest of the waves.
Again, we cannot see the ocean; nor do we know of the wind.

We see these molecules wisping in and out, yes.
But we also see another odd thing; they seem to entangle each other constantly.
We see it clearly; the curls of molecules in the air and then suddenly the one we want to watch whips into them and is part of that "local system".
But then we try to define a local system and everything falls apart.
Because everything keeps shifting, and that makes watching the individual molecule in the air nearly impossible.

We throw a ball out there and we can see these things start to wrap around and entangle with the "local system" of the ball.
But not forever; they seem transitive.

Now we add the ocean back. Suddenly it makes more sense.
We can see the motive of how this can be.


So, let's flip over to the "wave" concept I postulated previously.
If mass of particles together with momentum of the "system" (group of them) gives us our "wave", then the individual particles would pop in and out and get swept up in similar fashion to the water molecules at the top of a crest of an ocean's waves.


So the "why" isn't a question of how are things satisfied in computational measure, but instead, what is it that we are actually looking at that does behave in these two manners?


Does this make more clear sense of my question on the, "why"?
It's not a question of systemically why; but a question as to the unifying body and nature...kind of like, why does the metal go back and forward both?
Because the metal is a car that has this form of body and connected motion.


Decoherence tells us there is a connection; but it doesn't give us why that connection is what it is.

Boy...I hope I'm articulating this well.

Edit: (typo...sheesh)

[whoguy423]

Kepler,

Thanks for the paper... but it is still no closer to answering the problem of consciousness affecting the quantum world.

You have to understand that measuring by any sort of way, whether by recorder, or by direct observation always, always affects the position or momentum of any particles which are in motion!!!!

There is no other way of detecting them!!! You either know position and give up momentum... or you know momentum , but have no idea about position... but rather just a statistical probability on it's position.

In lay man's terms... when using a light amplifier to observe particles... the particles must give up some of it's momentum(energy) to the detector and hence would affect it's flight path. If you put a mesh to detect it's in flight position, it will give up it's momentum when passing through the mesh.

If you allow the particle to maintain it's momentum, then it's position can only be predicted.... although very accurately statistically.

It is a dichotomy... and you can never have both which would in essence have given you absolute detachment from the experiment!!!

Quantum de-coherence of snapping into one reality or another is the Multiple universe idea.

The Macro effects of de-coherence can be explained using the Multiple universe theory.... although me myself, do not prescribe to this theory simply because of the ever expanding universes which arise out of all conscious thought!

Cheers

Originally Posted by JaysonR

Perfect.
How does the arrangement of the nature of matter support a behavior like both of these descriptions.

Both quantum and classical? I don't think nature does support both. We live in a quantum world. Classical physics is just an approximation. Decoherence gives the appearance of classical physics. Is that what you mean?

Anyway, I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, I just need to think about it for a while. Let it "sink in".

Originally Posted by whoguy423

Kepler,
Thanks for the paper... but it is still no closer to answering the problem of consciousness affecting the quantum world.

How so? The paper quite clearly says that wave function collapse does not require consciousness. Sure, it's not the final word by any means. But I would say that we are "closer".

Originally Posted by whoguy423

You have to understand that measuring by any sort of way, whether by recorder, or by direct observation always, always affects the position or momentum of any particles which are in motion!!!!

There is no other way of detecting them!!! You either know position and give up momentum... or you know momentum , but have no idea about position... but rather just a statistical probability on it's position.

In lay man's terms... when using a light amplifier to observe particles... the particles must give up some of it's momentum(energy) to the detector and hence would affect it's flight path. If you put a mesh to detect it's in flight position, it will give up it's momentum when passing through the mesh.

If you allow the particle to maintain it's momentum, then it's position can only be predicted.... although very accurately statistically.

Yeah. What does this have to do with consciousness?

Originally Posted by whoguy423

Quantum de-coherence of snapping into one reality or another is the Multiple universe idea.

The Macro effects of de-coherence can be explained using the Multiple universe theory.... although me myself, do not prescribe to this theory simply because of the ever expanding universes which arise out of all conscious thought!

Decoherence has nothing to do with the multiverse interpretation. They might be compatible, but decoherence is common in many interpretations of QM. Also, the multiverse interpretation doesn't say that each universe arises "out of all conscious thought." Anyway, I'm also not a fan of the multiverse interpretation, personally.

On a personal note, final exam week is coming up for me soon. I'm going to be a bit busy for the next several days. I already have been spending too much time here the past few days, haha.

So... if I disappear for a bit, that's where I am.

[whoguy423]

Originally Posted by Kepler

Yeah. What does this have to do with consciousness?

Am I detecting a harsh tone my fellow forum member. I give you this... in order to make ANY observation.... you NEED to be CONSCIOUS of it!!!!

Whether directly or indirectly, YOU being CONSCIOUS of the OBSERVATION affect the motion of any particles!!!!

If you are not CONSCIOUS of the obversation... I can safely say, no observation has been made!!!! Have a good think about Schrodingers dead cat thought experiment.

Comprendey my fellow Spiritualist!

I'm only here to help

[whoguy423]

Originally Posted by Kepler

Decoherence has nothing to do with the multiverse interpretation.

It has everything to do with the Multiple universe theory or interpretation as you put it!!!

As soon as you are aware of your reality, wave-function collapse occurs into one of many multiple universes arising from your thoughts.

Originally Posted by whoguy423

Am I detecting a harsh tone my fellow forum member.

No, no harsh tone. Sorry to have come off that way. It was an honest question, not a sarcastic one. For the most part, I'm all smiles over here behind the keyboard.

Originally Posted by whoguy423

I give you this... in order to make ANY observation.... you NEED to be CONSCIOUS of it!!!!

Whether directly or indirectly, YOU being CONSCIOUS of the OBSERVATION affect the motion of any particles!!!!

If you are not CONSCIOUS of the obversation... I can safely say, no observation has been made!!!! Have a good think about Schrodingers dead cat thought experiment.

For me to make an observation, I must be conscious of it, yes. But a particle detector making an observation of an electron's momentum does not need to be.

Originally Posted by whoguy423

It has everything to do with the Multiple universe theory or interpretation as you put it!!!

As soon as you are aware of your reality, wave-function collapse occurs into one of many multiple universes arising from your thoughts.

You seem to be assuming to be true the thing this whole thread is about: that consciousness causes wave function collapse. As I have said, there is reason to believe that this is not true. If you think consciousness does cause wave function collapse, and you'd like to put forth an argument why, I'd be more than happy to discuss it.