does sin corrupt our logic

[TheImmortal]

Originally Posted by ask21771

I recently read something that says we cant trust our logic and understanding of god because our sinful nature warps our logic and reasoning, I need to know how I can prove this isnt true.

The key seems to be restoring one's pure Original Nature so that one can see clearly as in "Thou RESTORETH my soul" (23rd Psalm), "Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God" (Beatitudes), "Be still and know that ... I AM ... God" (Psalm 46:10), and "Be Thou perfect even as thy Heavenly Father is perfect" (Matthew 5:48).

Purification is not an easy process but one can trust unquestionably in that which lies beyond it all once one has cleared the personal debris that obscures the clear vision.

Far too many people are overly concerned with Original Sin and sin in general while forgetting about the process of restoring the pure Original Nature.

[windywherever]

Originally Posted by TheImmortal

Far too many people are overly concerned with Original Sin and sin in general while forgetting about the process of restoring the pure Original Nature.

Hi theimmortal. Would you mind clarifying a bit more as to what you mean by "pure original nature"? You talk about the process (i.e. clearing the mind) but it's not clear what the thing is itself. Thanks.

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by ask21771

I recently read something that says we cant trust our logic and understanding of god because our sinful nature warps our logic and reasoning, I need to know how I can prove this isnt true.

Logic is merely a tool, nothing more, nothing less. As such it can be used for evil or good purposes. It all depends on ones intent.

For example, a hammer can be used to build something beautiful/practical or it can be used to harm someone. Does the carpenter refuse to use the hammer to build a house because he is afraid he may use it to intentionally harm someone? No...

In other words, if your intent is good, you have nothing to worry about

[IamSoul49]

Hello All

Hmm....How can logic ever harm anyone..?....It is simply - the recognition and acceptance - of "things which are" - "that which is" - and of course,realisation that these things mean also,consequences and results will naturally follow...It is realiksation of truth - that is all..

Logic - as a "tool" - can only do that which it is designed to do - find the essence of truth - and although that truth may be painful to find at times,it is iindeed the very thing that the mind was ssearching for all along..Truth is always a good thing....

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by IamSoul49

Hello All

Hmm....How can logic ever harm anyone..?....It is simply - the recognition and acceptance - of "things which are" - "that which is" - and of course,realisation that these things mean also,consequences and results will naturally follow...It is realiksation of truth - that is all..

Logic - as a "tool" - can only do that which it is designed to do - find the essence of truth - and although that truth may be painful to find at times,it is iindeed the very thing that the mind was ssearching for all along..Truth is always a good thing....

"logic
noun
1.
the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference."

Logic in and of itself cannot harm anyone, however, it can be used for unethical purposes.

e.g. given the definition, The thief can conclude that it is logical that no one will see him stealing an automobile at 2:00am

[IamSoul49]

Hello All

SeZen; Ah yes - I see your approach now

Well - the thief would be correct - probably,no one would see him..lol...that is logical truth.....However,if he was using his mind and logic to work out his actions at all - then surely,it would have prompted him already - through his conscience perhaps ? - and told him that to steal at all,is a very bad idea to begin with...lol....

Obviously - such a thief - has a) no conscience - and b) picks and chooses his logic as he sees fit - not very intelligent,which is why most eventually,end up behind bars..lol...

[SeaZen]

Originally Posted by IamSoul49

Hello All

SeZen; Ah yes - I see your approach now

Well - the thief would be correct - probably,no one would see him..lol...that is logical truth.....However,if he was using his mind and logic to work out his actions at all - then surely,it would have prompted him already - through his conscience perhaps ? - and told him that to steal at all,is a very bad idea to begin with...lol....

Obviously - such a thief - has a) no conscience - and b) picks and chooses his logic as he sees fit - not very intelligent,which is why most eventually,end up behind bars..lol...

The thief knows of the risks of stealing an automobile and weighs that in his decision making process. The thief may or may not have a conscience. The one with the conscience can use logic to come to the conclusion that society has failed to allow him a chance to succeed so he must use means outside its accepted norms that are illegal in order to succeed. This is but one example of unethical use of logic. I am sure there are many more.

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by IamSoul49

Hello All

Hmm....How can logic ever harm anyone..?....It is simply - the recognition and acceptance - of "things which are" - "that which is" - and of course,realisation that these things mean also,consequences and results will naturally follow...It is realiksation of truth - that is all..

Logic - as a "tool" - can only do that which it is designed to do - find the essence of truth - and although that truth may be painful to find at times,it is iindeed the very thing that the mind was ssearching for all along..Truth is always a good thing....

How?
Because logic, so called, can be subject to EGO. Thereby disqualifying it.
EGO includes self preservation of the organism. However, we are more and other than just the organism.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory", is the scripture.
All of us, just as in the "lower" organic forms, are EGOIC.
Which is also related with the devil.

There is enough scripture written about the devil, no?
God of this world and age? Goes about as a roaring lion seeking to devour all who fall into his path?

Those who are focused on this world, and life alone; Who's perspective is that this is the "real" world, the greater reality and truth, are among the most Egoic.

No?

This equates with the scripture that all have sinned and fallen short of His glory, and why Jesus spoke about being, "Born Again".

[IamSoul49]

Hello all

Morph; Good to see you posting again

Because logic, so called, can be subject to EGO. Thereby disqualifying it.

Ah yes - I see your point and so I added that little "clause" above - those who use PROPER logic,legitimate,from the deeper mind,will include all truths they uncover and then follow them to the end and see where they lead...That is the path of logic,to understand,know,explore all your options thus derive truth from the greatest pool of wisdom available to you,every source and option explored as best we may - and duringthis inner uncovering,revelation process,we will surely,inevitably at the same time,discover also,ourr CONSCIENCE (hopefully soon) - for this is an essential truth we all have - as we all DO have a conscience - either allowed and followed already,or ignored fully (as the thief and egoic minded are doing)

Thus - usually - as the mind matures this way - as spiritual awareness takes hold - so the little "ego self" here,becomes ever more Self aware - understands its predicament more and more - and so,the actions and CHOICES they make,reflect this new inner presence..If we think about our self deeply,we inevitably find this conscience within,and that when Soul begins to really speak clearly,connection established..The truly egoic,are ignoring this inner small voice,wont allow it to blossom into true guidance at all..

EGO includes self preservation of the organism. However, we are more and other than just the organism.
"For all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory", is the scripture.
All of us, just as in the "lower" organic forms, are EGOIC.

Yes - I will agree at the surface - but tell you,it goes much much deeper than that...even our "higher self",our Soul - this too,still has "ego" - still has Self preservation and agenda to see fulfilled - always this is so...Ego istself - is really in essence,just a "Self identity" - a Conscious perspe0tive of self that is ""hands on" dealing with moment to moment reality as it perceives it..I would say - that for EVERY given circumstance,encounter and interaction we ever have - we literally,create a "new ego" - that then DEALS with that specific experience...

Consider the following for example - something we all relate to easily - man and wife - blissfully married - all is well - mostly - they love each other fully,and this is their focus of mind,ego mind in love with the other...BUT - at times - they disagree,argue fight - and FORGET their love,as they FORGET them Self - thus,for a little while,in a heated argument or exchange - they create and call forth A NEW EGO - and this one,is spouting hatred and hurling insults as it fights for dominance over the other....

See clearly - its all ONE MIND - the husband loves the wife,but in REACTION to the world out there,he simply forgot or IGNORED his own Self,and for a while called forth a part of self that was contrary to his intent - as did the wife similarly...In the MOMENT before them,it overwhelmed them,and they lost their mind - literally...Same person,same being - TWO totally different presented "egos"....

The key to all of that - is not the mind itself - but the IGNORANCE of that mind - that which we either do not know - or crucially - that which we are actually IGNORING within our self - this determines actions,and "ego judgements"....

Now as I say - a higher mind - a Soul lets say - this too has this narrow intense focus that is dealing with reality and INTERACTION - for as said,everytime such an interaction occurs,the mind splits itself in that manner and calls forth into Creation,that which is needed to deal efficiently with this circumstance...The mind focuses itself specifically - and this specific focus,is always "egoic" - always believes it is the most important - and it IS the most important,at that moment in THAT circumstance,for it is always,fullfilling its role and purpose - DEALING with the interactions of the world(s) out there....Every level of mind that is still individualised,has such an egoic stream and focus,always...

Which is also related with the devil.
There is enough scripture written about the devil, no?
God of this world and age? Goes about as a roaring lion seeking to devour all who fall into his path?

Oh yes for sure - this devil we are to fear - is very real and present - and indeed,it is god of this world and age...In every sense that is true...In its essential truth - this means of course - the lower mind here - the small self identity,as a finite and perishable human physical being..As I say,the mind holds this focus - this egoic stream - and it believes it fully,as motst important,and the problem here in THIS realm - we are too limited - severely handicapped - we only have 5 small senses,and these barely function efficiently at all - with which to work out our truth - and also - surrounded by other limited handicapped beings in the same manner who are all,always dictating to us who we are and what we are allowed to be - all we see ,is very little,slice of true reality and true potential....We ignore most of our Self - life here kind of forced it upon us,but it is this Self ignorance that is the real problem...

Those who are focused on this world, and life alone; Who's perspective is that this is the "real" world, the greater reality and truth, are among the most Egoic. No?

YES - indeed they are - the "devil has them" as they say...But it only has them for as long as they remain Self ignorant - once they realise who and what they are,always were,then this devil cant harm them any longer

This equates with the scripture that all have sinned and fallen short of His glory, and why Jesus spoke about being, "Born Again".

YES - exactly this too - very very true..SIN - is the guidance indeed,of this "low ignorant mind"...EXACTLY that - it is precisely what it ACTUALLY MEANS..."Sin" - means literally is to miss the intended target - and crucially,a deeper meaning that states,we are not Present,not giving our all,and so we inevitably failed..

Spiritual sin then - we have missed our intended target - which is always to be the LIVING Divine truth of Self - part of Our Father - the living embodiment,just as Christ...We failed to do this,because we were NOT PRESENT - not giving it ALL our mind - this is impossible for us to achieve in THIS state we are NOW in,because as we know,we are divided in mind,as we see - a HUGE unavoidable divide first,mortal mind at top,subconscious self below - but then worse yet,we continually divide this top layer mind again and again and again - creating these never ending egoic streams and little self identities....

Thus - we fail in our intent time after time - are literally born into this divided mind,and trapped in its use, - until and unless we become Self aware - and that indeed is exactly what Christ advised to overcome this "sin" - literally - mend first,this broken divided mind - delve deep within,bring forth that which you find,piece your whole Self back together - REMEMBER - as in,literally - re join - that which you always Are..This remeberance of Self - this merging of mind - does indeed create a NEW MIND - a WHOLE MIND - and this is truly to be "born again" as they say - thus accomplish this part first He said -find and call forth this Presence within,and it will unlock the narrow gate He said - Our Father waits patiently Beyond...

[Belle]

But who's logic.

I work for 3 different people. They all have their own logics and beliefs - and they are all right. in their own ways.