Understanding the Lords Prayer

[muffin]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I would agree.

I am a big believer in helping others experience stuff. Not just talk about it.

Good afternoon jonesboy

Yes, can be done just in the presents of someone, without anything being said.

[muffin]

Originally Posted by sky123

Been thumped a few times with religious texts, did I pay attention .... not at all

I'll come back to this one, got work, no rest for the wicked

[sky]

Originally Posted by muffin

I'll come back to this one, got work, no rest for the wicked

But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt. There is no peace, saith my God, to the wicked.

[django]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

Emptiness means in this context that all things are light. That you are not this form but the light.

How about a Christian Saint speaking on the topic?

From St. Symeon The New Theologian (949-1022)



We awaken in Christ's body
as Christ awakens our bodies,
and my poor hand is Christ,
he enters my foot, and is infinitely me.

I move my hand, and wonderfully
my hand becomes Christ, becomes all of him
(for God is indivisibly
whole, seamless in his Godhood).

I move my foot, and at once
He appears like a flash of lightning.
Do my words seem blasphemous?—Then
open your heart to him.

And let yourself receive the one
who is opening to you so deeply.
For if we genuinely love Him,
we wake up inside Christ's body

we wake up inside Christ's body
where all our body, all over,
every most bidden part of it,
is realized in joy as him,
and he makes us, utterly, real,

and everything that is hurt,
everything seemed to us dark, harsh, shameful,
maimed, ugly, irreparably damaged,
is in him transformed

and all is recognized as whole, as lovely,
and radiant in his light
we awaken as the Beloved
in every last part of our body


Seems a lot like Yidam Deity or what I have often described as merging.

“Let no one deceive you! God is light (11) and to those who have entered into union with Him He imparts of His own brightness to the extent that they have been purified. When the lamp of the soul, that is the mind, has been kindled, then it knows that a divine fire has taken hold of it and inflamed it. How great a marvel! Man is united to God spiritually and physically, since the soul is not separated from the mind, neither the body from the soul… It is evident that just as the Father abides in His own Son (12) and the Son in His Father’s bosom (13) by nature, so those who have been born anew through the divine Spirit (14) and by His gift have become the brothers of Christ our God and sons of God and gods by adoption, by grace abide in God and God in them (15).”


St Symeon The New Theologian And Messalianism

Is that much different than being One like Siva as well?

One with the light? How do you achieve such a thing, only by moving beyond to realizing emptiness of self.

How do you achieve such a thing as being one with this light? According to your quote above, by being "born anew through the divine spirit." Born anew, born again, the self that was 'hurt, dark, harsh, shameful,
maimed, ugly, irreparably damaged, is in him [being Jesus] transformed.' It is the hurt, dark, harsh, shameful, maimed, ugly, irreparably damaged self that is revealed as terribly empty, and it is the divine spirit and Jesus that bring St Symeon into union with God and light. To me this being born anew into union with a loving Father God (from your quote below) can be described as empty of self, but can only be described as full with God.

And my issue remains, is being in union with a loving God equivalent to Buddhist emptiness. And once again, I would like to see this answer from a Buddhist perspective, where Buddhist emptiness resembles being in Union with a loving God.

As we ascend to that which is more perfect, He who is without form or shape comes no longer without form or without shape. Nor does He cause His light to come to us and be present with us in silence. But how? He comes in a definite form indeed, though it is a divine one. Yet God does not show Himself in a particular pattern or likeness, but in simplicity, and takes the form of an incomprehensible, inaccessible, and formless light. We cannot possibly say or express more than this; still He appears clearly and is consciously known and clearly seen, though He is invisible. He sees and hears invisibly and, just as friend speaks to friend face to face (cf. Ex. 33:11), so He who by nature is God speaks to those whom by grace He has begotten as gods. He loves like a father, and in turn He is fervently loved by His sons.

Quote n° 3433 : Saint Symeon the New Theologian , (949 - 1022), Christianity, Orthodoxy
Source : The Discourses, p. 365, Trans. C.J. de Catanzaro. Ramsey, N.J.: Paulist Press, 1980.

..........

[Gem]

Originally Posted by jonesboy

I think we have to look at the various Christian tradition.

Buddhsim does pray for salvation if you are a Pure land Buddhist.

Just like the second coming in Christianity the Buddha predicted something very similar.

Someone who will come and teach the true dharma.

“At that period, brethren, there will arise in the world an Exalted One named Maitreya, Fully Awakened, abounding in wisdom and goodness, happy, with knowledge of the worlds, unsurpassed as a guide to mortals willing to be led, a teacher for gods and men, an Exalted One, a Buddha, even as I am now. He, by himself, will thoroughly know and see, as it were face to face, this universe, with Its worlds of the spirits, Its Brahmas and Its Maras, and Its world of recluses and Brahmins, of princes and peoples, even as I now, by myself, thoroughly know and see them” (Digha Nikaya, 26)."

One mention of the prophecy of Maitreya is in the Maitreyavyākaraṇa. It implies that he is a teacher of meditative trance sādhanā and states that gods, men and other beings:


Will lose their doubts, and the torrents of their cravings will be cut off: free from all misery they will manage to cross the ocean of becoming; and, as a result of Maitreya's teachings, they will lead a holy life. No longer will they regard anything as their own, they will have no possession, no gold or silver, no home, no relatives! But they will lead the holy life of oneness under Maitreya's guidance. They will have torn the net of the passions, they will manage to enter into trances, and theirs will be an abundance of joy and happiness, for they will lead a holy life under Maitreya's guidance

I guess if we bend things enough they'll eventually fit together, but in essence it can't work, because in real life people are just people and it already fits without any religious identities, but then we call ourselves I am Buddhist, I am Christian, Muslim, Jew etc. and make these distinct separations. But we know inside that these are only imagined things, built on symbols and icons and affirmed by ritual alone, not having any actuality in nature.

[django]

Originally Posted by Gem

I guess if we bend things enough they'll eventually fit together, but in essence it can't work, because in real life people are just people and it already fits without any religious identities, but then we call ourselves I am Buddhist, I am Christian, Muslim, Jew etc. and make these distinct separations. But we know inside that these are only imagined things, built on symbols and icons and affirmed by ritual alone, not having any actuality in nature.

This is rational of course, and likely a popular view in the secular West, but it doesn't take into account the possibility that the Jesus story might be more true and relevant than you realise. I was averse to the whole Christian thing myself but then a couple of things have happened in my life which have required me to reconsider my cynicism, because if you see a rose even if you weren't looking for a rose, it would be foolish to then say it's not a rose because I don't believe in roses. Kind of thing

[django]

Originally Posted by sky123

Yes I can see it's slightly different. When you say ' utterly empty ' what do you mean?
I can't see anything that is empty there is always something remaining. Mybe it's about craving to feel satisfied which is fullness, i'll ponder on this :smile

I personally find Christianity and Buddhism without all the dogma can go together, but lot's would disagree.

I mean it just feels empty, it is a feeling, utterly is just meaning 'very' if you like, and it seems this empty feeling was very deep within my heart. It was a feeling I had for years, but one I tried hard to keep accepting because I always believed that underneath that emptiness there was something worthwhile, and indeed I have found what I was looking for, and it is fulfilling.

I found Rumi to be more useful than any religion in the process of looking though, with his 'guesthouse' poem and lines like ''The wound is the place where the light enters you'' and "Don't seek the water; increase your thirst, so water may gush forth from above and below."

[sky]

Originally Posted by django

I mean it just feels empty, it is a feeling, utterly is just meaning 'very' if you like, and it seems this empty feeling was very deep within my heart. It was a feeling I had for years, but one I tried hard to keep accepting because I always believed that underneath that emptiness there was something worthwhile, and indeed I have found what I was looking for, and it is fulfilling.

I found Rumi to be more useful than any religion in the process of looking though, with his 'guesthouse' poem and lines like ''The wound is the place where the light enters you'' and "Don't seek the water; increase your thirst, so water may gush forth from above and below."

' I always believed that underneath that emptiness there was something worthwhile, and indeed I have found what I was looking for, and it is fulfilling '

Did you find what you were looking for, or did it find you
Either way as long as your happy and content that's what's important. I haven't looked much into Rumi but your quotes have piqued my interest, thanks.

[muffin]

Originally Posted by sky123

Been thumped a few times with religious texts, did I pay attention .... not at all

Back again

Sorry sky for miss leading you as such. In the most part I speak in my terms in how I see things and in what I've experienced. I find it easier to hold on to my first thought this way and let it flow.

So using your words, "Did you find what you were looking for or did it find you."
It found me

[sky]

Originally Posted by muffin

Back again

Sorry sky for miss leading you as such. In the most part I speak in my terms in how I see things and in what I've experienced. I find it easier to hold on to my first thought this way and let it flow.

So using your words, "Did you find what you were looking for or did it find you."
It found me

No you didn't mislead me, i'm just being juvenile but the Supermarkets are always trying to mislead me regarding the bestest Muffins, I know which are the the best through experience, Double Choc Chip


What I was looking for found me, even though I thought I'd found it.
Enjoy your sleep, night shifts are not easy, been there.