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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > General Beliefs

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  #61  
Old 16-02-2018, 04:20 PM
lemex lemex is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 3,078
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenslade
And the truth is relative to one's own agenda.

Illuminating imo. One can observe this even today.

Last edited by lemex : 16-02-2018 at 06:07 PM.
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  #62  
Old 16-02-2018, 09:55 PM
davidmartin davidmartin is offline
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Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,082
 
For me absolute truth exists 100%

The problem is our ability to comprehend that truth. We can only do our best to do this, complete comprehension is beyond us. We can't bring it down into our world and squeeze it into our heads

A second problem is people who have assimilated to themselves a definition of truth which is possible to understand. This becomes a weapon in the wrong hands. Truth can be distorted through over simplification. This effort although misrepresenting truth can be used to exert control and garner earthly rewards if not heavenly ones

We all need some handles and obvious entry points to the truth. Religion provides these, but can go too far and end up obscuring what it is meant to reveal.

Post modern thought is mostly a reaction to these excesses of religion and the truly bad outcomes that flowed from that
The safe and sanest course would be to ditch the concept of absolute truth or make it entirely relative to the individual.
But then, the loudest voices end up the ones leading the crowd
Sooner or later we are back to trying to bind together what we intuitively agree on and agree to disagree on without falling into the trap of thinking we know the truth

It remains though, still there, still discoverable, beyond our reach, able to guide us toward itself, hidden in the meaning of it's name
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  #63  
Old 16-02-2018, 11:57 PM
Gem Gem is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Australia
Posts: 22,073
  Gem's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by knightoflenity
You can see the breadcrumbs in the set up & where it supposedly leads.

The big "and so therefore God exists because he is absolute truth" ..

Funny that I don't need to prove birds or waters existence yet God, for some reason needs semantics & slight of hand before he can be "seen".

" Jesus he knows me & he knows I'm right "
- Genesis

(Phil Collins & friends)

Well God is the big unknown, so the premise, "we don't know" is true, but the leap to "and therefore God" is not logical and unsound. If you're familiar with Thomas Aquinas' 5 proofs of God, they represent the basic structure of the 'proof' that God exists.

Without going into the details, it all boils down to this logic structure: if truth, then God.

To me the truth is just honesty, so I don't concern myself with 'absolutes' and 'ultimates'. Anyone can be basically honest in themselves, and in this way we have a 'truth ability'. It's the only guide we have in life.
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Radiate boundless love towards the entire world ~ Buddha
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  #64  
Old 18-02-2018, 12:38 AM
r6r6 r6r6 is offline
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Book1 Lords Prayer Omni-considerate Style

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
Without going into the details, it all boils down to this logic structure: if truth, then God.

Ask 100 differrent peope definition of God and get a least 50 differrent answers. There can be no rational, logical common sense disscussion untill there is commonality of definiton. Old new I know.

R. Buckminister Fuller..."Since 1927, whenever i am going to sleep, i always concentrate my thinking on what i call "Ever Rethinking the Lords Prayer" (Richard Buckminister Fuller)

I am confident as specifically argued, my following declaration constitutes a scientifically
meticulous, direct-experience-based proof of God.

"Ever Rethinking the Lord's Prayer
July 12 1979

To be satisfactory to science
all definitions must be stated
in terms of experience.

I define Universe as
all of humanity's
in-all-known-time
consciously apprehended
and communicated (to self or others)
experiences.

In using the word, God,
I am consciously employing
four clearly differentiated
from one another
experience-engendered thoughts.

Firstly I mean:_
those experience-engendered thoughts
which are predicated upon past successions
which are unexpected, human discoveries
of mathematically incisive,
physically demonstrable answers
to what thereto fore had been missassumed
to be forever unanswerable
cosmic magnitude questions
wherefore I now assume it to be
scientifically manifest,
and therefore experientially reasonable that

scientifically explainable answers
may and probably will
eventually be given
to all questions
as engendered in all human thoughts
by the sum total
of all human experiences;
wherefore my first meaning for God is:-

all the experientially explained
or explainable answers
to all questions
of all time-

Secondly I mean;-
The individual's memory
of many surprising moments
of dawning comprehension's
of as interrelated significance
to be existent
amongst a number
of what had previously seemed to be
entirely uninterrelated experiences
all of which remembered experiences
engender the reasonable assumption
of the possible existence
of a total comprehension
of the integrated significance-
the meaning-
of all experiences.

Thirdly, I mean:-
the only intellectually discoverable
a priori, intellectual integrity
indisputably manifest as
the only mathematically stateable
family
of generalized principles-
cosmic laws-
thus far discovered and codified
and ever physically redemonstrable
by scientists
to be not only unfailingly operative
but to be in eternal,
omni-interconsiderate,
omni-interaccommodative governance
of the complex
of everyday, naked-eye experiences
as well as of the multi-millions-fold greater range
of only instrumentally explored
infra- and ultra-tuneable
micro- and macro-Universe events.

Fourthly, I mean;-
All the mystery inherent
in all human experience,
which, as a lifetime ratioed to eternity,
is individually limited
to almost negligible
twixt sleepings, glimpses
of only a few local episodes
of one of the infinite myriads
of concurrently and overlappingly operative
sum-totally never -ending
cosmic scenario serials.

With these four meanings I now directly
address God.
"Our God-
Since omni-experience is your identity
You have given us
overwhelming manifest:-
of Your complete knowledge
of Your complete comprehrension
of Your complete concern
of Your complete coordination
of Your complete responsibility
of Your complete capability to cope
in absolute wisdom and effectiveness
with all problems and events
and of Your eternally unfailing reliability
so to do

Yours , dear God,
is the only and complete glory.

By glory I mean the synergetic totality
of all physical and metaphysical radiation
and of all physical and metaphysical gravity
of finite
but non-unitarily conceptual
scenario Universe
in whose synergetic totality
the a priori energy potentials
of both radiation and gravity
are initially equal
but whose respective
behavioral patterns are such
that radiation's entropic redundant disintegratings
is always less effective
than gravity's non redundant
syntropic integrating

Radiation is plural and differentiable,
radiation is focusable, beamable, and self-sinusing,
is interceptible, separatist, and biasble-
ergo, has shadowed voids and vulnerabilities;

Gravity is unit and undifferentiable
Gravity is comprehensive
inclusively embracing and permeative
is non-focusable and shadowless,
and is omni-integrative;
all of which characteristics gravity
are also the characteristics of love.
Love is metaphysical gravity.
(eome- note; Bucky has also described love as the synergetic interplay between these
two opposite forces.)

You, Dear God,
are the totally loving intellect
ever designing
and ever daring to test
and thereby irrefutably proving
to the uncompromising satisfaction
of Your own comprehensive and incisive
knowledge of the absolute truth
that Your generalized principles
adequately accommodate any and all
special case developments,
involvement's, and side effects;
wherefore Your absolutely courageous
omni-rigorous and ruthless self-testing
alone can and does absolutely guarantee
total conservation
of the integrity
of eternally regenerative Universe

You eternally regenerative scenario Universe
is the minimum complex
of totally inter-complementary
totally inter-transforming
non-simultaneous, differently frequenced
and differently enduring
feedback closures
of a finite
but non-unitarily conceptual system
in which naught is created
and naught is lost
and all occurs
in optimum efficiency.

Total accountability and total feedback
constitute the minimum and only
perpetual motion system.
Universe is the one and only
eternally regenerative system.

To accomplish Your regenerative integrity
You give Yourself the responsibility
of eternal, absolutely continuous,
tirelessly vigilant wisdom.

Wherefore we have absolute faith and trust in You,
and we worship You
awe-inspiredly,
all-thankfully,
rejoicingly,
lovingly,
Amen."
__________________
"Dare to be naive"... R. B. Fuller

"My education has been of my biggest impediments to my learning"...A. Einstein

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."...R Feynman
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  #65  
Old 18-02-2018, 11:48 AM
Nitiananda Nitiananda is offline
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Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 161
 
Various saints have always preached various Truths at all times. For example, the Sakyamuni Buddha 2500 years preached four absolute truths.
1 The first noble truth about suffering
2 The second noble truth about the cause of suffering
3 The third noble truth about the cessation of suffering
4 The fourth noble truth is that there is a way to overcome suffering. This holy golden way of 8 steps
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  #66  
Old 18-02-2018, 01:34 PM
Greenslade
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemex
Illuminating imo. One can observe this even today.
Thank you. Isn't a Light we can see more tangible?
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  #67  
Old 18-02-2018, 01:39 PM
Greenslade
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gem
To me the truth is just honesty, so I don't concern myself with 'absolutes' and 'ultimates'. Anyone can be basically honest in themselves, and in this way we have a 'truth ability'. It's the only guide we have in life.
There is your truth, my truth, Spiritual truth, Universal truth..... And all of them hanging a name on Ruby Tuesday and moving further from the truth. If I am to be truthful with myself, I don't like the connotations that the word 'truth' has because it's become so diluted as to be meaningless. Honesty I can work with and if we're being honest it's the closest to any truth we'll ever come to.
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  #68  
Old 18-02-2018, 01:57 PM
SeaZen SeaZen is offline
Master
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Chicago
Posts: 988
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceField
So many arbitrary responses on this thread, I'm just going to make one post to cover them all.

Here is the refutation:

You: "All truth is relative. There are no absolutes."

Me: "Are you absolutely sure about that?"

If you answer yes, then you've just refuted yourself. You do believe in absolutes. If you answer no, then you admit that you could be wrong, and you are wrong, because the idea that there are absolutely no absolutes is self-refuting philosophical suicide.

I too once believed there were no absolutes. I was too blinded by stubbornness and attachment to my belief to see how illogical the concept was. Now I share my insight with you. Take it or leave it.

Note that if you answer that there is no absolute truth, you will be quickly and efficiently refuted. Just a heads up!

You seem to base your proof/belief of absolute truth on the premise that those who claim there is no absolute truth will be refuted. Your supposition also assumes that truth has to be either absolute or relative when it can possibly be something else altogether known or unknown. How about we turn this around and start with the premise of your belief in the absolute truth.

You: All truth is absolute

Me: How do you know?

You: Because I can infer that those who believe in relative truth actually believe in absolute truth

Me: That does not constitute proof of absolute truth, besides how do you know the truth has only the possibility of being absolute or relative?

Checkmate

This is actually a no win scenario for either argument, only a philosophical exercise at best
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  #69  
Old 19-02-2018, 06:55 AM
happy soul happy soul is offline
Experiencer
Join Date: Oct 2017
Posts: 418
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceField
Does absolute truth exist? Or is all truth relative? Please provide evidence or logic to support your view.

Note that if you answer that there is no absolute truth, you will be quickly and efficiently refuted. Just a heads up!


A friend of mine once said, 'There are no absolutes, including this one.'

I've thought that he should have said, 'There are no absolutes, except this one'. lol

If truth is relative, then the fact that it is relative would BE an absolute.

I conclude that logically, absolute truth must exist.

Edit: Wow, I just read your defense of the fact that there are absolute truths, and I see that it was the same as mine! I had only read the OP before making this post.
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  #70  
Old 19-02-2018, 10:07 AM
Greenslade
Posts: n/a
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by happy soul
If truth is relative, then the fact that it is relative would BE an absolute.

I conclude that logically, absolute truth must exist.
I conclude that logically the truth is that the truth is absolutely relative, but then logic is as absolutely relative as the truth. As Spock from Star Trek said, "Humans are illogical so it would be illogical to think they could think logically." To Spirit everywhere is so 'absolute' and 'relative' are meaningless, unless unless the truth is that you're Spiritual and you want to gain some existential high ground. So there. And I'm off to have some beer and popcorn while the entropic system of Spirituality does its 'descend into chaos' thing.
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