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Go Back   Spiritual Forums > Spirituality & Beliefs > Love & Relationships -Friends and Family

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  #31  
Old 29-01-2018, 03:15 PM
Nature Grows Nature Grows is offline
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Originally Posted by Inika

so men are just satan. apart from NG and shivata (think i spelt that right?)


Thanks inika.... its shivatar* btw..


meep meep sheep sheep.

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  #32  
Old 09-02-2018, 12:35 PM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Very 90's

The book was very clever as the title is it's hook, it's not wrong exactly either so boom - lots of sales.

Physically over millions of years men & women of all cultures on all continents have managed to sort it all out fine before the book existed so, it's good to take the positives from the book but not see it as definitive truth.

I'm sure I don't need to point out that despite what is being kicked around at the moment socially, men & women are different - but the same.

A paradox.

Men were supposed to protect & women were supposed to nurture, that's what it comes down to when all is said & done.

In the west it is changing (I'm a stay at home Dad) but if it all went walking dead tomorrow, the males would have to revert back to the original protector role.

Feminists of today like to present this as a suggestion that women are weaker but biologically - once Ronda Rousey gets pregnant she isn't going to fight - we can all fight about the technicalities etc but that is the very base line for our differences.

The males would likely die young & the women would be hardy enough to keep the traditions, culture, sciences, literature etc going.

Western society is structured around production, both sexes can produce art, medicine, goods & services so for now we are a mess of genetic programming vs whatever society comes up with next.

Its cheesy but as long as both sexes respect & nurture each other then we should have happy children to perhaps one day get us off into that great big universe & really get the party started!
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  #33  
Old 09-02-2018, 07:46 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Originally Posted by knightoflenity
The book was very clever as the title is it's hook, it's not wrong exactly either so boom - lots of sales.

Physically over millions of years men & women of all cultures on all continents have managed to sort it all out fine before the book existed so, it's good to take the positives from the book but not see it as definitive truth.

I'm sure I don't need to point out that despite what is being kicked around at the moment socially, men & women are different - but the same.

A paradox.

Men were supposed to protect & women were supposed to nurture, that's what it comes down to when all is said & done.

In the west it is changing (I'm a stay at home Dad) but if it all went walking dead tomorrow, the males would have to revert back to the original protector role.

Feminists of today like to present this as a suggestion that women are weaker but biologically - once Ronda Rousey gets pregnant she isn't going to fight - we can all fight about the technicalities etc but that is the very base line for our differences.

The males would likely die young & the women would be hardy enough to keep the traditions, culture, sciences, literature etc going.

Western society is structured around production, both sexes can produce art, medicine, goods & services so for now we are a mess of genetic programming vs whatever society comes up with next.

Its cheesy but as long as both sexes respect & nurture each other then we should have happy children to perhaps one day get us off into that great big universe & really get the party started!

It doesn't sound cheesy at all, Knight.

But IMO the facts don't support this place of mutual respect and nurturing ever having been a reality historically.
That's where we're got to start from scratch and build that reality from the ground up.

By binning the lion's share of what passes for male/female "relationship" right now and acknowledging the deep and fundamental lack of authentic love, respect and nurturing in male/female relationships today. Which our modern culture and our mainstream norms have intentionally underwritten, even on top of the long-standing historic imbalance, violence, dominance, and coercion which has existed since time immemorial.

Physically, IMO, nothing at all was ever sorted in any meaningful sense aside from the basics of hierarchy, oppression, force and coercion, and overall dominance of the weak by the powerful. Men over weaker men, and all men over women/all other non-[adult males]. Broad strokes. We live in a culture of power-over, and women of whatever culture and colour are always at the bottom of the dung heap. It's not primarily due to pregnancy either. It is primarily due to men's physical size and strength advantage in a world where might makes right. If women were huge powerful giants that got preggers for a few months, they'd gird their belly with steel plate or what have ye and get on with it with nary a care, LOL. And no one would dare penetrate them without consent or deep caring, ever, would they now?

IMO we need to face these truth square in the face, and then support one another in dealing with the deep discomfort that it brings. Like addicts hitting rock bottom, we've all got to own the problems we share collectively, or we'll not make any progress by design. Something will always happen next, but we've got to take ownership of where we are first, in order to take conscious choices that will lead us to the kind of reality we all want to be a part of.

As you say, recorded history (and probably before that) has been focused on physical survival, might makes right, and dominance of the weak by the powerful.
Mutual respect and nurturing of one another by both male and female has nothing at all to do with dominance of the weak by the powerful. It also has nothing at all to do with our prior history, to date. Remember even in Western countries, marital rape was legal everywhere till 20 yrs ago. The German women pushed hard to finally criminalise marital rape in the West in 1997, ahead of Croatia ('98) and behind Macedonia ('96).

Remember that throughout history until the last century of so, women were generally married off and penetrated, without any consideration of consent.
If they were lucky. The last century or so of moderate movement toward agency and legal status for all women in most Western countries (not just elites or those with powerful family) has no parallel in the history of humanity. The non-Western world, of course, is still very much connected to our ancient history regarding the primitive place of women. However, by dint of where at least those of us in the West have arrived, we (humanity) are now in completely uncharted waters, and we finally have the potential to take ownership of our situation and begin to chart our own course going forward. This is an amazing and exhilarating prospect for humanity as a whole IMO...absolutely magnificent.

So the reasons for these conversations are fundamental and powerful. It's because now we are at the place on our collective journey where we are just now gaining a widespread level of awareness, moving out of spiritual infancy in ever greater numbers. We are now finding eyes to see, ears to hear, minds to reflect and realise, and hearts by which to apprehend, lead, and choose. Hearts by which to manifest our conscious choices and become co-creators with Source.

Truth may always be simple enough, if it can be apprehended in is purity. But gaining that apprehension of truth is not a simple thing. We first have to acknowledge the filters, obstructions, and cultural blinders (and binders) we've all got and historically have always had. Many will struggle with these realisations because they will tend to overturn all prior notions of truth, power, natural order and all that.

And even so, alignment with our centre, with our truth, is not at all simple as a collective. Apprehension of truth in authentic love by our collective consciousness will require much discussion and consideration by all from a perspective of lovingkindness and equanimity. Since many aren't yet approaching alignment in lovingkindness and equanimity, this is a long-term collective project...and it calls for our utmost sincerity and commitment to ourselves and to one another.

Though I agree that a mutuality of respect and nurturing for self and others should and can be our way, our truth, and our light going forward. If (and only if) we choose to create that kind of society and those kinds of friendships and partnerships with one another

Peace & blessings
7L
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Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

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  #34  
Old 09-02-2018, 08:36 PM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7luminaries
It doesn't sound cheesy at all, Knight.

But IMO the facts don't support this place of mutual respect and nurturing ever having been a reality historically.

Peace & blessings
7L

I don't mean to come across as aggressive or dismissive, your points have lots of merit but it's a very "modern" look at it.

To me this view does a tremendous disservice to all of our female ancestors.

Women haven't been meek & mild throughout history until all of a sudden things began to change - it's about knowing your limitations.

There is a reason that the Lady Macbeth character resonates so well, women have had to be resourceful & cunning throughout time.

Go and tell Irish or Italian women of a few decades ago that they are "traded" by men.

The idea of mummy's boy & daddy's girl is universal - males saw the maternal benefit of their own up bringing & fathers wished for their girls to be treated like a princess. Obviously class & society has had an effect but essentially it's never been women in chains, whipped & used as sex/breeding machines.

I mean it will have happened but societies don't form under the banner of rape and pillage.

Our female ancestors had (for lack of a better term) lady balls.

Women knew that invaders & marauders meant that life was over so they will have actively encouraged strong sons & relatives.

We have a convoluted view of our own nature - maybe even over blown. From early "man" to modern day we are here because of both the males & the females of history's refusal to lay down & die.

The notion of the "witch hunt" is another under appreciated example of how much power has been accredited to women.

Women of the modern age have began to compare themselves to men - rights, equality etc etc yet if the men truly disrespected those women those things would never be granted.

Why would the dominant give away power?

Simply because despite the chest beating that goes on (it has been necessary to look big & tough) men cannot survive without women, even the Christian Church didn't have the power to stop the female vote.

Behind every great man is an even greater woman - perhaps more than one i.e mother, sister, grandmother all examples to him, in his ear, giving new life to siblings or offspring.

The species would have died out long ago if it were too stupid to recognise that women are equal - it may not say it in so many words from one culture to the next but it has done so within the family structure - it's had to.

The 1950's household with picket fences was NOT the "original" family blueprint - far from it.



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  #35  
Old 09-02-2018, 11:07 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knightoflenity
I don't mean to come across as aggressive or dismissive, your points have lots of merit but it's a very "modern" look at it.

To me this view does a tremendous disservice to all of our female ancestors.

Women haven't been meek & mild throughout history until all of a sudden things began to change - it's about knowing your limitations.

There is a reason that the Lady Macbeth character resonates so well, women have had to be resourceful & cunning throughout time.

Go and tell Irish or Italian women of a few decades ago that they are "traded" by men.

The idea of mummy's boy & daddy's girl is universal - males saw the maternal benefit of their own up bringing & fathers wished for their girls to be treated like a princess. Obviously class & society has had an effect but essentially it's never been women in chains, whipped & used as sex/breeding machines.

I mean it will have happened but societies don't form under the banner of rape and pillage.

Our female ancestors had (for lack of a better term) lady balls.

Women knew that invaders & marauders meant that life was over so they will have actively encouraged strong sons & relatives.

We have a convoluted view of our own nature - maybe even over blown. From early "man" to modern day we are here because of both the males & the females of history's refusal to lay down & die.

The notion of the "witch hunt" is another under appreciated example of how much power has been accredited to women.

Women of the modern age have began to compare themselves to men - rights, equality etc etc yet if the men truly disrespected those women those things would never be granted.

Why would the dominant give away power?

Simply because despite the chest beating that goes on (it has been necessary to look big & tough) men cannot survive without women, even the Christian Church didn't have the power to stop the female vote.

Behind every great man is an even greater woman - perhaps more than one i.e mother, sister, grandmother all examples to him, in his ear, giving new life to siblings or offspring.

The species would have died out long ago if it were too stupid to recognise that women are equal - it may not say it in so many words from one culture to the next but it has done so within the family structure - it's had to.

The 1950's household with picket fences was NOT the "original" family blueprint - far from it.

.
Knight, hello there and you're entitled to your opinion, absolutely.

But I thoroughly disagree that in seeing where we're at today means that I discredit women of the past. That's simply not true IMO. Acknowledging the flawed history and current reality does not take away from anyone's innate humanity nor their potential for growth and change. Nor for the potential for humanity as a collective to take positive, conscious choices.

Of course, regardless of their oppression, regardless of their limitations in status or freedoms, regardless whether historically penetrated without consideration of consent....etc... women are of course fully human. We are of course sentient and self-aware, regardless of how we've been treated or what we've endured. As I said, women are authentically equal in every way save physical size and strength. However, historically women have in fact been greatly unequal in terms of not only physical power. Historically, women have also been greatly unequal in terms of manifest political power, economic power, social and legal status, rights of full citizenship, and basic human freedoms and securities (like bodily security).

All of these manifest imbalances ultimately rest on the physical superiority of men's size and strength. Why? Because absent law and penalties (or regardless of them), men oppress other men through these same means and their same ultimate source. As you said, if it were the day after and no one cared about law or money...we're down to might makes right when the world is on men's terms.

Of course, women have always had their own mind and spirit and that goes without saying. I don't weigh the prestige or power of real or fictional queens or elites (LOL), nor any ethnic stereotypes, LOL. Women of all backgrounds have spirit and always have, for certain...but if the rights and freedoms and opportunities are not fundamentally available to all women, then it is not a meaningful consideration for me.

And yes, we certainly have been and are "that stupid", hahaha ....and if I were you I wouldn't put anything beneath humanity as a base floor, LOL. (As a teen I once had a religious manager at a fast food restaurant say he didn't believe in evolution b/c he didn't believe we ever went around beating on each other w/clubs...as I thought, well we beat on each other with clubs today all over, LOL...what is he smoking?)

However, likewise, nor would I limit our potential or our ceiling...as we (humanity) also have great possibility, as I've discussed. That doesn't mean the historic and current reality are not as I've described.

I could overwhelm you with a mountain of facts -- mostly gathered by male lawyers, policy makers, academics, and scientists, to their great credit -- but we already know of this reality. It is ours to this very day, and ours to guide as we see fit, resting only on our need to own our history as well as our future. Greatly flawed and terrible thus far in its dominance and violence...and yet still full of great hope and possibility, so long as we simply begin to turn toward alignment with our centre. Our heart centre.

Peace & blessings
7L
__________________
Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #36  
Old 10-02-2018, 01:06 AM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Knight, hello there and you're entitled to your opinion, absolutely.
we're down to might makes right when the world is on men's terms.


I could overwhelm you with a mountain of facts -- mostly gathered by male lawyers, policy makers, academics, and scientists, to their great credit -- but we already know of this reality. It is ours to this very day, and ours to guide as we see fit, resting only on our need to own our history as well as our future. Greatly flawed and terrible thus far in its dominance and violence...and yet still full of great hope and possibility, so long as we simply begin to turn toward alignment with our centre. Our heart centre.

Peace & blessings
7L

At a guess, perhaps I'm wrong but I'd guess that you are Canadian or American?

Children that are larger than their counterparts "push in" or "dominate" from an early age. It all stems from competition, trying & testing what aids success.

What troubles me is essentially blaming "men" for keeping women down.

The casting couch was an open secret, someone with the ability to make someone very rich - did so at a price. Seduction is only a few steps away from this mindset only here the female takes the lead yet the gains are the same.

Mrs Thatcher, Theresa May, Merkel all FEMALE leaders yet they have done nothing major to help other women - they still play the game & essentially whatever conflict or issue arises is still dealt with via army instead of empathy etc.

Women have power, they always had power but the issue still comes back to physicality when the poop hits the fan.

Men have fought & died to protect us all yet at the same time are scapegoated as the "dominators" of the planet. Every new medicine, technology or idea has been shared amongst the tribe otherwise how did we all get here?

The mountain of facts stacked against "men" likely doesn't take into account those that were conscripted against their wills or exterminated for being part of another group. It won't account for explorers or risk takers. Those who have died defending others beliefs etc etc ..

Ultimately a line needs to be drawn in the west.

There is nothing that a man does that a woman can't except perhaps physically lifting objects, women can bear children yet men cannot create life.

Other countries are a different situation BUT moral women & men will hopefully lead by example going forwards.

The notion that Men are from Mars, women Venus is divisive. It is taking something as obvious as gender stereotypes & creating a divide.

We have genetic roles for the purpose of breeding - but right now there is nothing stopping a woman for example becoming president other than her own ego.

Whilst it didn't happen Thatcher, May & Merkel shows that it can - it would be a shame to burden the young women of today with unfounded prejudices.

After all men of the past were still massively uneducated, yet once the realisation of a wrong sets in things have changed.

Hardly the mind set of dominance.

.
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  #37  
Old 10-02-2018, 04:48 PM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knightoflenity
At a guess, perhaps I'm wrong but I'd guess that you are Canadian or American?

Children that are larger than their counterparts "push in" or "dominate" from an early age. It all stems from competition, trying & testing what aids success.

What troubles me is essentially blaming "men" for keeping women down.

The casting couch was an open secret, someone with the ability to make someone very rich - did so at a price. Seduction is only a few steps away from this mindset only here the female takes the lead yet the gains are the same.

Mrs Thatcher, Theresa May, Merkel all FEMALE leaders yet they have done nothing major to help other women - they still play the game & essentially whatever conflict or issue arises is still dealt with via army instead of empathy etc.

Women have power, they always had power but the issue still comes back to physicality when the poop hits the fan.

Men have fought & died to protect us all yet at the same time are scapegoated as the "dominators" of the planet. Every new medicine, technology or idea has been shared amongst the tribe otherwise how did we all get here?

The mountain of facts stacked against "men" likely doesn't take into account those that were conscripted against their wills or exterminated for being part of another group. It won't account for explorers or risk takers. Those who have died defending others beliefs etc etc ..

Ultimately a line needs to be drawn in the west.

There is nothing that a man does that a woman can't except perhaps physically lifting objects, women can bear children yet men cannot create life.

Other countries are a different situation BUT moral women & men will hopefully lead by example going forwards.

The notion that Men are from Mars, women Venus is divisive. It is taking something as obvious as gender stereotypes & creating a divide.

We have genetic roles for the purpose of breeding - but right now there is nothing stopping a woman for example becoming president other than her own ego.

Whilst it didn't happen Thatcher, May & Merkel shows that it can - it would be a shame to burden the young women of today with unfounded prejudices.

After all men of the past were still massively uneducated, yet once the realisation of a wrong sets in things have changed.

Hardly the mind set of dominance.

.

Knight hello there I so disagree with many of your comments but to each his or her own. IMO, though, if you feel nothing stands in women's way, then I feel your perspective is not well-connected with many women's lives either here and around the globe.

Likewise, I also have stated that men historically and presently oppress other men. This means men with power, not all men. Over time the hierarchies of power, force, and control have been employed more strategically and ever more at a distance, but the effects are still quite real. Most men who work hard for a living, particularly if not white or not well-situated, understand this reality.

I have never blamed all men for the plight of the world. Rather I have accurately stated that throughout history up to today, the powerful and the elite continue to perpetrate a dominance and oppression of the few over the many. This is always implicitly backed by some institutional force or physical threat which can be brought to bear on individuals and groups. Violence of the few men over the many men is either implicit, overt, or proxied through other forms of oppression and control. The domination and control of women by men is a direct extension of this larger structure of control, but it takes the centralised oppression of the many men by the few men and makes it a universal aspect of individual men's lives. By taking the same structure in which they've been raised, and applying it to their relationships with women. That involves (unwitting) cooperation by individual men to dominate women, even whilst in turn they are dominated by powerful men and by their control of powerful political, economic, social, and cultural institutions. As individual men become more conscious and more self-aware, then they can choose to consciously and actively walk away from this paradigm and to NOT perpetrate it in their own lives. This is something all men can and I hope one day will will freely choose to do.

If you magnify the oppression and dominance of men over men many times, such that it is understood that in many situations you will be not only not valued, unheard, and unseen, BUT often dismissed, reviled, openly despised, or even attacked if you do seek to be heard, or seen -- and then add a constant, foundational level of vulnerability and defencelessness, then that is a little something like the experience of being a woman in every waking moment out in the world at large (work, society, with men, etc). Where any man, "great or small", can lord over you with the implicit threat of rape or other violence (beatings) and cow you into submission with his bad temper or outbursts or drinking. Any of which could be lethal for you if the switch is flipped momentarily, due to your size and strength differential. This is the fundamental dynamic over which we have historically laid penetration without consideration of consent (usually within a socially sanctioned arrangement like marriage, to recognise the transfer of property, LOL). The woman's perspective and consent was neither necessary nor valued, historically.

We have brought some changes into being literally yesterday, like granting women some basic legal rights of citizenship in the 20th century (like voting and entry into many jobs) and passing laws 20 yrs ago that at least make clear in the West that rape in marriage is still rape. Domination and control by either overt or implicit force is an intentional and ever-present aspect of our current social structure and its male/female "relationship" dynamic. Control by (implicit) threat of force is a huge thing. Men feel it in other ways from other men, but for women, it is most intimately associated with rape and other "hands-on" physical violence. It is a huge thing, deserving of further discussion. Remembering only something like a few percent of all rapes in a 1000 are ever prosecuted in the West (3% per UK Center for Research on Violence Against Women in 2011), whilst the estimate is 1 in 5 women is a victim (US CDC 2017 stats), so it's really only a statement of ideology on paper.

Men still oppress, dominate, and rape women with impunity because of the power-over imbalance in our social structure, just as powerful men figuratively and literally do to all other men. We also need to remember that much of this is unquestioned and is reinforced by all the toxic social norms in which we've stewed all our lives. This is down to the deep imbalances that we've sown and underwritten historically, in order to reproduce the heavy-handed institutions of hierarchy and control at every level, a system which we used to navigate survival during our spiritual infancy.

We are emerging out of the dark and rather mindless spiritual era of our infancy, and there's much to sort. The beautiful and wonderful thing to me is that we (humanity) are now conscious enough and powerful enough to own ALL of what we have wrought and perpetrated onto one another...and thus we can begin to shape a future of conscious choice. Which we can consciously choose to direct toward lovingkindness and equanimity.

I'll just very briefly add a few notes to comments

Quote:
Children that are larger than their counterparts "push in" or "dominate" from an early age. It all stems from competition, trying & testing what aids success.
Yes, children that are larger may dominate in the sense of bullying but I find that not to be the norm, not in my day and especially not amongst children today. I am 5'6, nearly 5'7, and despite being girly in appearance, I was always tall, strong, and athletic as a child, so the boys didn't dominate nor pass me in height till around 13. I didn't dominate and push them around, nor they me, we all put our best forward athletically, and we were all well-matched till the young gents got their growth. Meaning, channel the aggression into the sport and we can all go far. I realise there is a fine line for many, and that's where both cultural norms and one's own conscience come into play. But the easy assumption that there must be dominant ones, even if some are better physically on the field, or are stronger, is wrong IMO. It is assuming that we decide with our muscles and our size and not our heart and our mind. That is simply not true...there are many ways to honour others both on and off the field or the playground, etc. In fact I am always pushing my son to be a bit more assertive on the field, as his main concern is hurting those who are smaller. I want him to find a balance, but I certainly don't want to break his humanity and train him to be a bully or to throw his weight around. I think it's wonderful he has a heart and is sensitive to others.

Quote:
Mrs Thatcher, Theresa May, Merkel all FEMALE leaders yet they have done nothing major to help other women - they still play the game & essentially whatever conflict or issue arises is still dealt with via army instead of empathy etc.
If the system is rotten, I really hardly expect a literal handful of women to be any better or worse than the rest of the elite hordes. Some will be more attuned to right-alignment and the highest good of all, and some far, far less so, schilling and pandering with the best of the crusty old pale farts. But all are overwhelmingly compromised by the hierarchy of power and dominance they must fit into, and there is much that is rotten and deeply imbalanced and needs chucked and remade.

With regard to male-female relationships, IMO the hierarchy is likewise rotten and imbalanced in many ways and does not serve the highest good of any or all. A vast portion of it IMO needs chucked and remade. And we've finally begun to arrive at the time and place from which to do it

Quote:
After all men of the past were still massively uneducated, yet once the realisation of a wrong sets in things have changed.

So...ok. Progress is gradual, and perhaps can only go so far without a complete overhaul of both the individual heart and mind, and the external structures in which we participate. But what I see is that over the last 3 centuries or so of modern democracy, loads of those formally uneducated men had historically a deep experiential awareness of class oppression and injustice, of deep economic oppression and injustice. And of deep class/ethnicity/religious-based prejudice and discrimination. Some were courageous and laid down their lives for moderate (but still bloody and hard-won) meaningful social change in the degree of power-over dominance and control by the elite.

Many would say there is much that still needs to be transformed or evolved, but we are still in the process of owning our reality so as to be able to transform and evolve in ways that are conscious and meaningfullly chosen.
Women are going to be a part of all of these changes, in ways that historically were never considered or envisioned. And I firmly believe that as women find their centre and affirm one another, and as women continue to find their voice, we can bring our own manifest integrity, clarity, and perspective on things to the world that is hugely healing and inspirational and yes, transformative. Likewise, men should absolutely do the same for themselves and for one another. Moreover, women are, for the most part, very supportive of men in these efforts, and we are also very much looking forward to getting this support from men too. I hope that this conversation can be a part of that.

Peace & blessings
7L
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Bound by conventions, people tend to reach for what is easy.

Here we must be unafraid of what is difficult.

For all living beings in nature must unfold in their particular way

and become themselves despite all opposition.

-- Rainer Maria Rilke
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  #38  
Old 10-02-2018, 05:29 PM
Raziel Raziel is offline
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Originally Posted by 7luminaries
Knight hello there I so disagree with many of your comments but to each his or her own.

If an EMP takes out the power grid or we end up in some kind of end of days/ day after tomorrow scenario then the way it has always been - will be.

We know what we are told of history - things can be talked up or down on a whim depending on who is pushing what agenda.

If we are lucky - we live in a watershed era whereby we stand on the shoulders of giants but have a potentially small grasp of the whens & whys.

It is unfair to hold the men of today in the west accountable for the actions of those who came before but if we all believe in democracy & equality then we should all live by it.

Those who don't need to be phased out.

That doesn't happen via "equal opportunity hires" however - the best person for the job should get it & there is no reason a woman can't get there on their own merit.

We live in a synthetic society & it is still important to understand that men/women are not created for that world specifically but a harsher environment whereby it is very easy to die painfully.

I won't comment to further refutation for the sake of the OP - I merely feel that someone should speak to the good things that women have today & going forward - with the co operation of men.
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Old 10-02-2018, 11:24 PM
ocean breeze ocean breeze is offline
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Just face it ladies. Men are better than women. Case close.
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Old 12-02-2018, 03:10 AM
7luminaries 7luminaries is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knightoflenity
If an EMP takes out the power grid or we end up in some kind of end of days/ day after tomorrow scenario then the way it has always been - will be.

Knight, hello there! Well, generally I disagree it has to be any certain way, nor that we have to and must revert to what we are not by nature, to something lower than the innocent animals. When we kill, it is by choice. We always have the capacity to chose, and it the event of catastrophe, those who band together and share and cooperate and farm, etc, will be far stronger, with or without Old-West frontier guns at hand and so forth.

The only thing that stands in between collective cooperation and protection for the common good is ego and uncontrolled lust for power and dominance...a serious iniquity that is greatly hampering humanity's progress and always has. Now that we no longer need to constantly operate on the verge of starvation, better decisions can be taken.

And I say we need to view with the greatest suspicion those who are constantly fear-mongering and war-mongering to deprive us of our civil liberties and our social progress to date. It benefits only the elite and the posh of the First World nations, those who would like nothing better than to return to the class system of pre-WWII Europe or America.
Quote:
We know what we are told of history - things can be talked up or down on a whim depending on who is pushing what agenda.
I think we all know that there were harsh, oppressive kings who saw their savagery as divine right. And similarly many more recent totalitarian leaders.

I think we also know that many died in the West (and elsewhere) in class struggles for liberty, for dignity, and for rights of full citizenship.

Of course, in standing for democracy and equality of all humanity and certainly of all citizens in my own country, male or female, that will be seen as having an "agenda", LOL, whilst their own reactionary, roll-back-the-clock platform is "not". Hahahaha....right That's not you now, mate, I'm certain.

But point is, IMO I think we all need to throw around words like "agenda" very carefully, and if we do use that word, we need to spell out exactly who we've labelled as having said "agenda".

Quote:
If we are lucky - we live in a watershed era whereby we stand on the shoulders of giants but have a potentially small grasp of the whens & whys.
Again, I disagree. Yes, we had honourable men and women all round who dealt with tragic injustices and a hugely oppressive, stratified society in most places throughout history. Key figures led mobilised efforts for social change, particularly in the West, on the foundational moral grounds of the equality of all. ("All" meant just white men first and later was extended to women and folks of colour to recognise what amounted to a prior denial of the full truth...we are still on this trajectory of revelation and truth, and more evolution will come, unless we choose to roll it back due to our iniquities).

But it didn't end there. Social evolution (collective spiritual evolution) has continued and our knowledge of ourselves and of our complex societies have continued to grow. Now, we have an even broader perspective and an even deeper clarity of perspective to all of the right-aligned struggles and movements of the past. We can now bring far more to the where's and why's. And, again, we do have many great social scientists and thinkers and philosophers of all stripes over the past century or so in particular to thank for this research and insight, many if not most of them men.

Quote:
[It is unfair to hold the men of today in the west accountable for the actions of those who came before but if we all believe in democracy & equality then we should all live by it.

Knight...over and over I've said I do not put the blame on all men.
Likewise, all those who struggled against kings and dictators didn't put the blame on all men. It is the imbalanced, power-over structure itself and those who manipulate and control it who perpetuate the paradigm and perpetrate the dogma onto the unwitting and the vulnerable.

Is it that you don't understand the distinction between the masses of humanity and the power-over elite who have oppressed and ruled over the rest of us variously for millenia? Or is it that you are just off on your own tangent? I really am not certain.

However, I will say that it falls to ALL of us to take ownership for where we find ourselves today, both individually and as a collective (society and humankind). That's how we ALL take decisions as a society that are thoughtful and that reflect our true intent.

For example, when slavery was abolished, how did that happen? First, some raised the issue, perhaps many. Then, we as a society struggled with taking ownership of the reality that this is an issue in our society and either way, we are taking a decision. Meaning this. We decide either to take ownership and do something intentional (say, to end it or whatever the decision is). Or we decide by doing nothing, and slavery continues because we have chosen (through silent complicity) to allow it to do. That's how life works. It doesn't matter who started slavery or that it was someone else's original doing...it mattered that we either all took ownership and did something about it in our day...or didn't.

Quote:
Those who don't need to be phased out.
I assume by this that those who subvert republican democracy would be arrested, tried, and jailed. The problem is that most of those who are subverting democracy are at the top, and when they die the kids inherit the lot or are introduced into the halls of power.

Quote:
That doesn't happen via "equal opportunity hires" however - the best person for the job should get it & there is no reason a woman can't get there on their own merit.
Ideally this would be true of men and of women. In reality, it's not even true of men, not by a long shot...so no way in hell is this true of women, LOL.

Since the playing field is hugely unequal, most men who get to the top or even begin to approach it in any measure usually have the deck hugely stacked in their favour over other men. And certainly over women. See my immediate prior about inherited wealth and nepotism. We still have nobility here, ye gads. It's all entrenched. Like the vatican but without the robes and the abstinence.

Quote:
We live in a synthetic society & it is still important to understand that men/women are not created for that world specifically but a harsher environment whereby it is very easy to die painfully.
Again, I find your take to be odd. Every society that has ever existed has been of our own making...just not very many of us got a say in it, and it was crafted largely by the powerful and the elite.

That's how humanity works, though, we live in collective with one another. And it's we who decide what our collective society will be...no one else will do it for us and if we cede our power to the elite, we have our history to date to show us the outcomes. It's up to us to take responsibility going forward and to shape a truly collective future for humanity.

Quote:
I won't comment to further refutation for the sake of the OP - I merely feel that someone should speak to the good things that women have today & going forward - with the co operation of men.

I have enjoyed speaking with you too and look forward to continuing in future. It's not so much justifying the past that interests me, and nor can I be much convinced of how wonderful it's been But there is something I'm truly grateful for.

I want to clarify that I have been speaking of the great good we all have in the West (not yet in other countries as much) to shape our future together, such that we honour the voices of all as we take decisions together to lead humanity into a new future, where authentic love is front and centre in all our relationships.

In all our relationships, and particularly at those most core and most intimate, our male-female friendships and our male-female partnerships. I am very excited to have the opportunity as a woman in the West in the 21st century to shape this future together with women and with men, all of us. And I hope that you are too. This likewise means I have serious concerns with the state of things at present, LOL. But nonetheless, very happy to be alive now in the West...so long as we understand that we the people are everything, and we have to rise to that great honour and that great obligation. I very much see it as a spiritual calling to be here now, for each and every one of us.

Peace & blessings and back to bed ;)
7L
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